003 - Where Does Hydronic Heating Fit in a Retrofit?

Ben: Joining me today are Michael Ridler, Stephen Magneron and and Fellipe Falluh. We're gonna have an awesome discussion about hydronics for home retrofits. And I'm gonna give a little bit of a background before we dive in. This is a conversation, honestly, we've been trying to coordinate for a few months, and I've gotta give credit where credit is due. It was the the idea around this conversation that really led to the creation and release of Thanks for joining us for this episode of Renewing Homes. If this conversation added to your thinking, consider sharing it with others working to improve homes. Better homes through better retrofits. Welcome to Renewing Homes, the Residential Retrofit Podcast. I'm your host, Ben Hildebrandt. This show explores how we improve existing homes through better planning and design, better retrofit work, and better decision making. Better homes through better retrofits? Enjoy the episode. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests, and do not necessarily reflect those of any affiliated organizations. of the Renewing Homes podcast that that you're listening to or watching this on on right now. So I'm excited to dive in and and discuss hydronics and and how it can be used in homes and the different advantages of it. But before we dive into that, I just want to give everyone a minute to introduce yourselves. ⁓ Michael, would you like to go first, then we can go on to Stephen and then and then Fellipe. ⁓

Michael Ridler: Yeah, happy to. Ben, ⁓ I'm super excited we finally got connected. We've been talking about this for ⁓ months. ⁓ we were in Ottawa talking building science during a snowstorm when we first talked about this. So it's it's cool that we all get together. my name's Michael Ridler ⁓ I am the technical trainer slash general manager slash guy that sits in that visionary seat of like what's new and cool in in in HVAC and hydronics. I've literally been in the ⁓ HVAC space my entire life, not just my entire adult life. You guys have heard me make the joke. You know, my parents are contractors, I grew up on tools. Instead of summer camp I was child labor. And ⁓ I'm super passionate about HVAC and ⁓ happy to be here with ⁓ all you guys today.

Stephen Magneron: Great, and I'm Stephen Magnarone. I'm from HomeSol Building Solutions. I'm the Ontario Manager, Master Energy Advisor, Net Zero Energy Advisor. I've been with HomeSol for about 15, well, since 2010, so 16 years, give or take. Covered everything from code compliance, energy style, Net Zero, passive house, new construction and renovation. And so I'm super passionate about being able to provide clients with information for them to make good choices. ⁓ wearing another hat these days with Quantum Passive House. ⁓ a prefab panelization ⁓ and their director of project development. So hoping to have a lot of synergy there with a manufacturing ⁓ company as as being able to advise clients.

Ben: Thank you.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: Hey guys, Ben, thank you for the invite. So my name's Fellipe from Retrofit Construction. So we're general contractors in Montreal, Quebec. We really chose to deep dive really focus on retrofits only. So and when when I say retrofits, I say ⁓ whole home envelope renovations. mostly right now the residential and multi-unit residential sphere. So we're not we're steering away from commercial, but we're really focusing on High performance, achieving good air tightness, good envelope and good mechanicals. multiple other hats too. I'm also the vice president of ⁓ the bâtiment passif Quebec, which is basically the Passive House Association in Quebec. So Passive House is very dear to me. something that I always try to ⁓ at least bring to the French language. And my third hat really also I'm a podcast host. my friend it's a French podcast called Au-Demeur, which is literally translates to beyond the walls. So I love talking about building science. ⁓ what what hide behind our wall, the the geeky stuff. So I'm happy to be here.

Ben: ⁓ what Awesome. Thanks. So to to dive in, I don't know, Michael, if you wanna set the stage for us here and just give us an overview of what what are hydronic heating and cooling systems and how can what's the high level how they can be used in the building.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, well I think what's really interesting is hydronic heating systems have been around a long time, right? It's not it's not new. we're not we're not inventing anything. But I think what's really neat about hydronic heating systems, especially as Fellipe and and Stephen were talking about, is from a retrofit standpoint, this the opportunity for hydronic heating and cooling to really allow us to innovate. And so where where I'm going with that is that as we went from like non-condensing to condensing boilers, we saw some minimal efficiency gains. I say minimal, but depending on how you look at it, you know, they can be quite significant. The opportunity for us on hydronic heating systems, it really goes beyond the home. And where I'm gonna connect the dot on that is that as we look at retrofitting homes right now, and everybody on this knows, like for us to go into existing homes and retrofit and try to reduce the energy footprint, it's really, really challenging. And the irony is in hydronically heated homes, it's actually really, really easy. You know, Navius Research put out this new study, and they showed that if we were to deploy thermal energy storage at scale, in Ontario, we can trim like 20,000 megawatt hours off peak. That's a 25% reduction. And all we got to do is figure out how to deploy thermal energy storage. And immediately, Stephen and I in Ottawa with you, Ben, are talking about how air-to-water heat pumps do this. So for me, what's really exciting about hydronic heating is is keeping it boring. keeping that extr existing infrastructure, deploying an air to water heat pump and turning the entire home into a thermal battery. So boring but it's exciting, right? Because we're not faced with, okay, we've got an existing system and we somehow have to sardine an air source heat pump into it. We can go into these existing hydronic heating applications, take the boiler out, put an air-to-water heat pump in, and take care of the heating and take care of the hot water. But what's really exciting about it is we think about the thermal comfort, we now have the opportunity to even offer cooling in the Those applications. So it's boring, but it's exciting. We're not inventing anything, we're innovating with existing systems. And if you're in Ontario, 10% of homes could adopt an air-to-water heat pump and immediately become thermal energy storage batteries. you're in the East Coast, it's more like 60%. Like it's a huge opportunity. So for me, what's exciting is just actually reusing existing systems and building grid-friendly systems in really innovative and easy ways.

Ben: Yeah. So so I guess for looking a bit more into hydronic systems themselves, what maybe can you give an overview of what the typical components of a hydronic system are? And then and then also what are on the retrofit side, specifically in in eastern Canada, there's a lot of homes that already have older hydronic systems in them and how how can we utilize those older components in a new updated system?

Michael Ridler: Yeah, look like in the Ontario market, there's a lot of ⁓ Radiant floor systems that have been installed, right? So they're all designed. There's there's systems that are so old they've actually got copper and steel tubing that's been used, right? Like a lot of old churches built in the early 1900s. So there's a lot of systems that use radiant floor heating systems. There's a lot of systems on cast iron radiators. You know, there's there's a lot of variety. And and the interesting part is it really doesn't matter if you're in Ontario or even Quebec or the East Coast, somebody who's traveled extensively and only traveled to talk about HVAC, not even for vacation. You know, the mix might change, right? Like in Ontario, I would argue that it's probably a 50-50 split between radiant floor heating and cast iron radiator systems, like panel-based heating systems. Whereas if you go to the East Coast, it's probably more like 80% panel-based systems, 20% radiant floor heating systems. But the systems are quite simple, right? You've got an emitter, which has is either a floor or some sort of a panel radiator, whether it's a sectional cast or otherwise. But within that, it's really quite simple beyond that. You've got a pump, you've got potentially a buffer tank, maybe an indirect tank, and you've got a boiler. And so what's really exciting to me is as we talk through what the next steps are on how we electrify, we're actually keeping the bulk of that system. The only thing that we're doing is we're taking out that gas appliance and we're replacing it with a high efficiency air to water heat pump. I would be amiss if I also didn't say, or a water to water heat pump. Right, there's a lot of opportunities. What's really held it back in the past, though, is that if Stephen, for example, was pricing out a project, the gas boiler project is definitely going to be less money. But as we deploy to the air-to-water technology, we're starting to opening up new opportunities where we can do the heating, we can do the cooling, and we can do the hot water. But from a grid impact standpoint, it has a really impactful impact ⁓ the grid. When we start deploying air to water heat pumps, because the trend right now is electric boilers. Right? So if you look at what people are doing, they're taking out gas boilers, they're putting electric boilers in, that adds a significant peak event. And so not doing that, gravitating towards air to water heat pumps, we still deliver on the comfort equation, which is important. We want to build homes that we can heat and cool, but we do it in a really interesting way. So We're not starting over as we go through this, but typically what you're looking at is a a radiant floor heating system, a panel heating system, and then do we retrofit that application.

Ben: Yeah, and it's interesting with those existing components, the distribution and delivery can largely stay the same. And but we can just update the the heat source part of that system. And can you I guess the one question too is like how how does that relate? Like you've mentioned being able to shave shave the peak demand using those systems, but how does how does that really work? I know if we if we look at an air to water heat pump, like we have the

Michael Ridler: Yeah.

Ben: just the higher coefficient of performance or energy use or lower energy use we get out of a heat pump compared to a direct electric resistance. But there's more to it than just that, correct?

Michael Ridler: Right, so I think the fair point to to we need to make is most people know this, but just for the people that don't, I'm a heat pump advocate. I have to say that. So whether it's ground source, air to air, or air to water, they all have a place, and I'm not trying to pick a favorite flavor. For me, the opportunity is that air to water is not getting the recognition that it deserves. So it is a fair question to say if I have an air to water heat pump and I have an air to air heat pump, What advantage does the air-to-water heat pump give me? Well, the advantage the air-to-water heat pump gives you it's working within an existing hydronic heating system. So let's just talk about a gas boiler cast iron sectional rads, right? If I heat my home up and I've got cast iron sectional rads and I've got a gas boiler, that house is staying warm for a long time. Once I heat those sectional rads up, they're not cooling off anytime soon. And the same would be said for a radiant floor heating system. So the advantage with the air to water heat pump is we now have the opportunity to run it when it makes sense and not when it's needed. So you have a significant peak reduction from the standpoint of the air to water heat pump running, but Fellipe actually has the choice of okay, I'm actually gonna run my air to water heat pump at the ultra low overnight rate, depending on if you're Ontario or BCE. I apologize, I'm not sure what the what happens in Quebec for rates, but You have that opportunity to choose when you run that appliance because the BTUs are available to you when you need them. So that is really like the really impactful difference between the two. Now you could argue, why not just do that with an electric boiler? Well, the electric boiler is going to add a pretty significant peak event, right? Whereas the air-to-water heat pump, we're taking advantage of that higher COP as well as choosing when we run it. The disadvantage being totally candid is you can buy an electric boiler for very, very cheap, right? An electric boiler. If we said it's $1,000, then your heat pump solution is probably going to be four. But we need to stop thinking about just at a home level. We need to think about what happens if 10,000 homes in Ontario, for example, adopt electric boilers. What does that do to us as Canadians? Versus what happens if they adopt air-to-water heat pumps. And it doesn't have to be only. could be that we're 50% air to water, we're 50% electric, we're 1% geo. For me, what's important is that we understand that there's different technology that needs to be adopted.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: Selfishly, I think I I I have that battle with with clients a lot. You know, I thinking about my wallet? and and you know, making those decisions, you know, thinking about peak demand, especially in the context of Quebec where electricity is so cheap, like selfishly a lot of people say, Well, peak demand doesn't really impact me. I mean, yes, it'll impact down it'll trickle down later. But it's hard to I mean, renovations are expensive, so people only think on the short term, right? And that's where I think I think utilities will need to play a bigger role in that. And to I mean, incentivizing hydronic heating, just like for example, Hydro Quebec is doing. I'm putting you in the context of Quebec. I mean, our peak demand is one of I mean, we're very everything is pretty much electric here in Quebec. ⁓ so peak demand here is becoming a big problem. And as well, as of about ⁓ a year ago, ⁓ Hydro Quebec came with some serious, serious ⁓ subsidies for ⁓ for geothermal installs, all the way up to like fifty-four thousand dollars for a geothermal installation, right? and so you that there is a value in that. ⁓ the the the utilities do see a value, and I think that for example, in the case of Quebec, Hydro Quebec, you know, is is is is leading the way in the right way of doing it.

Ben: that's the fact that difficult discussions are.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: And I think that utilities, if we want to move forward to a market where this is become more interesting, utilities have to not only communicate, but also incentivize those things, those those systems, right?

Michael Ridler: Well, I th I think you've touched on something really important too, right? Because some people listening to you say that might say, That's ridiculous. Why is Hydro Quebec giving I'm gonna round the math for simple math. Why is Hydro Quebec giving out tens of thousands of dollars for geothermal deployment? And I think it's really important that we understand that as a consumer, consumers are focused on one thing. They're focused on affordable housing, right? And I and and I get that. I'm the same. You know, I don't I don't love

Ben: It's not true. ⁓ yeah.

Michael Ridler: Any of the bills that I have in my house, and every day I'm laser focused on what ones can I control. But the reality is that if we think about it bigger picture, and if we look at the research that's come out from Navius Research, if we don't do something about these peak events, it's gonna translate to 11 cents a kilowatt hour more for ratepayers in Ontario by 2050. And we can look at that and go, not our problem, we don't care. But the reality is we'd also don't want rolling blackouts and rolling brownouts. ⁓ when you think about Why would a utility want to give money for geothermal heat pumps to be installed? Every three-ton ground loop that gets installed is the equivalent to over 150 kilowatt hours of thermal energy storage. If you look at what that means for a utility, that's $60,000 plus dollars of infrastructure they didn't have to build. Their own research shows that for every dollar they spend installing something like a geothermal heat pump or thermal energy storage.

Ben: I find it.

Michael Ridler: It's going to save them two dollars. Like what they're doing in Quebec, I'm gonna give props to Hydro Quebec and all of the stakeholders there. They are light years ahead of everybody in w how they're thinking. And this is in an environment where currently they have really cheap electricity. So I give them kudos for adopting thermal storage, ground source heat bumps, you know, like there's a lot of innovation happening there. And others are doing it too, and I think they're looking to Quebec as ⁓ as leaders in that space.

Ben: Conception. You know, like this. So I wanna go a little bit more down this little trail here. I would pose the question what's stopping other utilities in certain provinces? I don't want to get too political, but what's stopping other utilities in certain provinces and in Canada? And and even throughout the US it's the same thing. There's some utilities in many states offering incentives for for efficiency ⁓ geothermal, but but others aren't like what's stopping the utilities that aren't implementing programs like that? They would largely be seeing the same benefits. So why aren't they? What are what are you seeing, Michael? You're doing a lot of advocacy in this space, I'm aware of, so

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I can't help myself, right? Like I just you know, I'm not afraid of paying for a plane ticket, flying to BC, flying to the East Coast, meeting amazing people. I think that there's a great opportunity for more open discussion, right? Of understanding what does it actually mean and what do the facts say, right? So I don't wanna I don't wanna look backwards and judge what may or may not have happened because there's some amazing people. That have been working in electrification for decades. And I am the the last guy to show up and be like, I've got all the answers. If anything, I'm the first one to say I don't have all the answers. But I think that the number one thing that we need to do, and and I say this as an industry, but I don't mean like some association. And again, no no knock at associations. We as individuals have to take on the responsibility of what does it mean To understand the rule book of the utilities, of the policy people, of engineers and designers, of okay, what are the things that drive you and what motivates you? And what do we know amongst us for that will help you meet your goals, right? So if their concern is that they are facing a dual peak event, okay, what can we offer you that is not only not going to impact your dual peak event, but it's gonna utilize those valleys of electricity? And so for me, I think it's being unbiased, it's being clear-thoughted, and not picking a horse, if that makes sense, right? If you're going to have a conversation with somebody who is an expert on utilities, whether it's Hydro Quebec or IESO or whoever, you need to understand what do you need and what can we as an industry do to help you that's not specifically tied to a brand or a or a type of technology. Because

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ridler: There's a lot of cases where I can make an argument for ground source heat pumps, and some of you have heard me do it, right? Like it's I'm very passionate about it. But there's also a lot of places where I can't make that argument. I can make an argument that phase change is a better solution. A cold climate air source heat pump is a better solution. I think as long as we show up with facts and not feelings and opinions, people will listen to your argument. I guess I'll use the word argument, but I don't like that term.

Ben: Mm-hmm. Position? Yeah.

Michael Ridler: Position, thank you. Yes, they'll listen to your position, right? Because at the end of the day, people could say, like, Stephen, I really like what you're saying, but you know, these are just your feelings. Feelings are one thing, but facts are friendly. You show up with facts, you show up with the Navius research, you show up with real data, whether it's from Europe, the United States, or Canada, whatever, like there's amazing research that happens. And sometimes that research just stays in a lab somewhere. And I'm a bit of a nerd. I like to collect people's research, and I love sharing and making a bigger tent.

Stephen Magneron: Hahaha

Michael Ridler: Every meeting that I go to, I wanna bring more people, like Fellipe, I'm bringing to you a meeting. Next time I'm in your neighborhood, we're going to a meeting together because you're gonna bring so much value. Right? So I think that's the key.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: Let's do it.

Ben: Yeah, and I and I agree with what what you just said there, Michael, too. Like in the industry, we are so siloed both on the contractor, distributor, policy, research end of things. Like we're all doing our work and we have this report here, that report there, this this insight here, this insight that but how do we get that all connected and have those conversations? so I think I think

Stephen Magneron: Yeah.

Ben: That's really soon on the utility side, like let's present the facts. Like there's many of us that do see the potential advantages of hydronic systems in in lowering lowering peaks to to speak at a high level, not get into too much detail on that point for the utility. But then let's let's go down a level to to the homeowner end of things or the the occupant and the advantages there. Stephen, what's what's led you to be interested in in integrating hydronic systems into into some of your projects?

Stephen Magneron: ⁓ Honestly, very influenced by Michael and his work that he's presenting all over the place. So I'm developing these feelings that... I work a lot with the Net Zero Labeling Program and the tagline is the ultimate in ⁓ and efficiency. And the I'm researching this, ⁓ looking towards others Michael and Robert Bean and others who have been pioneering this for decades, or hydronic solutions to pose or present itself as a really good ⁓ So I'm trying to turn my feelings to facts using the tools that I have available to me. Right now we're really modeling with Hot 2000, which has been great. That's what EnerGuide rating system is based off of and all of the programs that we work with. But now we're leveraging that going into Volta SNAP from Volta Research, who are able to integrate some hourly energy modeling into this. And so now as that advances and gets more sophisticated, now we can actually show those numbers perhaps simulate ⁓ hours of safety when the power goes out, here's how this will keep you safe for this many hours, whatever the is, ⁓ or we simulate this idea of ultra-low overnight time use rates in Ontario. ⁓ Let's charge up the batteries, whatever might be, thermal storage, and then release it during the day because it isn't going to off ⁓ like a cliff during middle of winter. then we can also ⁓ have the thermal enclosure as the battery, ⁓ storage system as a battery, ⁓ then we can bring this to homeowners and ⁓ utilities and them the facts to make good decisions as well. ⁓ So where I'm coming from. ⁓

Ben: Yeah, you touched on some interesting points. Yeah. You touched on some interesting points there. Like I really like to talk about like the hours of safety. Like if the grid goes down, here's how many hours you can maintain comfortable conditions in in your home. And I often think about the envelope. I've been starting to use the term recently of of the passive performance of the of the building envelope. When we look at a hydronic system with a with a buffer tank or with a PCM thermal storage battery to you have that heat there. So it's a minimal amount of energy to distribute it when you need it as well. So that leads leads to a smaller battery backup system to provide that heat. And I'll note quickly too, like people go against systems or renewables because they're largely based on electrical and in being a great ⁓ system for providing heating during winter. I'm going back a couple years ago to the cold snap.

Stephen Magneron: Yeah. Exactly.

Ben: in the winter of early was it twenty twenty four, I believe, in in Calgary, where we were down minus thirty five, minus forty across Alberta. They issued a ⁓ emergency alert 'cause the electrical grid in in Alberta couldn't handle it. Vocal voices were talking about, ⁓ renewables don't work 'cause they're not providing the solar's not producing in the middle of the night. Darn it, we thought it would. I don't know who thought that. ⁓ But there's all this knock against renewable electrical systems. But the one thing that's not talked about much Siksika Nation, a an indigenous community just east of Calgary, they had I don't I can't recall off the top of my head what the exact reason is. They had a ⁓ state of emergency because their gas supply, their natural gas supply to their community went down during that cold snap. So they also didn't have any heat in their community. So there's There's multiple positions, but it's how can we get the most resilient system and and I think hydronic systems are are one path to get there. We have a good envelope, we can have the thermal storage capabilities of of hydronics, like these systems, the thermal mass works a whole lot better than heating air and pushing it through our homes. Yeah.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I think what's really interesting too is just sort of recognizing that there's a lot of people that have been working through this for a long time and they just I don't know, it's Some people work silently, ⁓ really excitedly doing cool things. So a great example is I was out with Doug Terry Holmes two days ago. we were we were just talking about phase change. And just as a sidebar, he starts talking about this Land Ark project that he's doing. And I'm like, what is this? And it's where they're building homes that can literally be disconnected from power. ⁓ And still for weeks at a time, like without power to the grid. And I'm like, this is mind-blowing to me. And no shocker, we start talking about phase change, right? Of like, let's store heat ⁓ electricity and the opportunities that are there. But there's so many people that are working on really innovative things. And I think there's an opportunity to really put exposure on them, right? That's something that you can do, Ben, with with your podcast and Fellipe at you as well. Is like there's a lot of really cool innovations that are, you know, sometimes in the past looked at as like novelties. And the reality is. As we look at what the future of our grid can potentially look like, we need the Stephans and the Doug Darry's and the others of the world to really have an opportunity to weigh in because they may come off boutique and more expensive than a traditional system. But when you look at it at a much higher altitude, like what does it mean to not spend $10 billion? But instead, we maybe add an extra million dollars into an entire community to enable thermal energy storage, to enable a different type of heat pump, or better yet, just to make sure that as every hydronic heating system in Ontario gets retrofitted, that it doesn't end up as an electric boiler. It in fact an air to water heat pump. Like those are really scalable commercial ideas that just need dots connected. So I think there's there's so much opportunity happening.

Stephen Magneron: Yeah, we're actually Quantum Passive Houses working on an off-grid cottage ⁓ we're introducing this idea of an air-to-water system. They wanted ⁓ floors to be roughed in, so I was like, well, I've been talking to Michael, so let's investigate this as an option. So we've introduced another battery because we inject heat at the time into the slab, and then it'll just retain a lot longer. Sure, could be more economical if we put in a couple of ductless mini splits for this season cottage ⁓ actually putting it where the battery be which is the concrete ⁓ will it to be stored ⁓ for lot longer so that help out in an off-grid cottage situation so ⁓ yeah where example of where hydronics would ⁓ kind of shines ⁓ in this particular ⁓

Ben: Yeah, and

Michael Ridler: Yeah, when we talk about battery, we just gotta be so conscious of it can be super simple. Right? Like we it doesn't mean that it has to be a Tesla power wall, it doesn't have to be a phase change battery, it can simply be a really good choice of how to repurpose that radiant floor heating system.

Ben: Yeah, and connecting with some ...Michael too, I think another advantage of hydronics that I've heard of is that they can dial in a lot better to really low loads compared to a lot of forced air heating systems or even some mini split systems. Like a lot of the air to air or water to air heat pump systems, those units which are distributing that heat through forced air in the home, they have kind of lower ends of capacity on what you can what you can do. So and and I guess the hydronic systems too lend themselves to a lot simpler zoning and thus better comfort throughout the homes as well, correct?

Michael Ridler: Yeah, you know, it's i it's interesting. If you look at and again we'll pick on air to water heat pumps. So in my own house I have an air to water heat pump and I have no actual radiant heating anywhere in my house, right? Like it's it's a story for another day. ⁓ if you're a builder, and I mean Ste Stephen, you can speak to this more than anybody, but if if you can put a heat pump in that doesn't live in the building, that takes care of your heating, your cooling, your hot water, and don't have to frame out tape, paint install ductwork like that's that's really really powerful especially when you start looking at multi-unit or accessory dwelling units where you're like hey we'd like to add some zoning to this like you start looking at an airbase system it gets very expensive very quickly you start looking at an air to water heat pump like Fellipe could zone a system for a couple hundred bucks like it's it's really easy to do and we're not we're not skimping or or cutting any corners so

Ben: I mean it was

Michael Ridler: There's no question that we can deliver more energy, but we can deliver it more efficiently. Right? When you look at I can deliver as many BTUs in a three-quarter inch piece of pipe that would traditionally take a 14 by 8 piece of ductwork, we as mechanical people focus on the ductwork. We don't think about what it means to the space. Living spaces are getting smaller. If you don't have to frame out and bulk in a 14 by 8 section, that's really impactful. You're actually giving back living space. And we get focused on the mechanical room costs, and we also need to be focused on.

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ridler: What does it mean if we remove things for the builder? Right? They don't need extra trades out there framing and drywalling and painting and taping. know this because when I told a builder once, like, hey, the air to water is gonna be more money, they told me all the things we got rid of. And I was like, okay, I never actually thought about all the things that don't happen ⁓ we're not running ductwork through the space.

Stephen Magneron: Michael, you said something really interesting. Sorry, go ahead Fellipe, and then I've got another question for Michael on that one.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: We have some ⁓ So we have some some develop we have a current development right now where we're we're doing it's ⁓ it's a ⁓ well a multi unit residential building, ⁓ th three unit residential triplex that we're that that we're building here in Montreal. a retrofit too and and we're kind of like deep into well, we're in we're right now we're actually in the rough end stages of ⁓ ventilation ⁓ and really, really having a hard time. It takes a lot of space, everything's compact, so Fire separation also was something that was much more complicated with ductworks. and now I'm kind of seeing and you know, and I'm speaking here and I'm and I'm here also to learn on this podcast. Yes, I do know about it. I've never applied it actually on a multi unit building ⁓ it just makes sense. I'm going through it right now. Ductwork is ⁓ is big, bulky. it's our own development. So square footage actually has a value to it. And and I think that for definitely the next one, ⁓ it's something to consider. If our next project we'll definitely ⁓ start looking at hydronic systems cause we'd had so many shaft walls and and and and ⁓ what do you say, bulkheads to pass those ⁓ those vents that I'm sure that with a with a hydronic system we would have really avoided a lot of those.

Michael Ridler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, fire code compliance is another thing that builders taught me, Fellipe, of like y it's w it's way easier to run half inch PEX and put a fire stop on that than put fire dampers in. And with new code changes, which some of you will know better than me, it also can potentially get around multiple units because we're not mixing air between spaces. You know, it's it's a much simpler approach.

Stephen Magneron: Yeah, and then.

Michael Ridler: But we we can't negate the fact it's simpler, but it will be more money. But we get we need to sort of move beyond the upfront capital cost and look at the cost over the life of the building because when you own that building, you gotta be focused on a lot more than just what did I put in the mechanical room. It's how long is it in my mechanical room? And more importantly, what does it eliminate from the rest of the building? So And these are all things builders have taught me. I didn't know any of this. So

Stephen Magneron: And Michael, I think I feel like I heard you say that you can have the one system where it can also feed into an ADU or a coach house or additional dwelling unit that is separate to the main house or the main building. that possible? ⁓

Michael Ridler: Yeah, the ⁓ the nice thing with air to water heat pumps is they have really simple emitters that we're not mixing air between spaces. So in my own home, the reason I have an air-to-water heat pump is I have a ductwork system that was installed by somebody who is definitely not qualified. So my ductwork goes up into the attic, transitions to flex duct, and then comes back in the house. So my basement, ⁓ I have sensors in every room, which won't shock anybody. I'm a total nerd. So my basement can be 60 degrees, and the upstairs can be 84 degrees. So for me to redo the ductwork is insane. So instead, I'm running half inch PEX connections up to the upstairs, and then I'm putting in low temperature convectors for each one of those rooms. And for $100, I can put an actuator on it, give each one a thermostat, but it's half inch PEX, it's low voltage two wire to control it, and now I've got heating and cooling in the three bedrooms that are a problem upstairs. Like it's it's really, really simple. I can put them on the wall or I can get really crazy and build them into the wall. And if I wanted to, I could do a single unit with a small amount of ductwork to feed all three bedrooms. Like there's so many options, but for me to run half inch PEX is super easy.

Stephen Magneron: Yeah, and then can you also take it a step further? Because I have a lot of HomeSol clients who are pursuing ⁓ like CMHC, MLI Select. They've a four unit, a fourplex building and then a secondary dwelling that's separate that. ⁓ Could you ⁓ could you ⁓ insulate it run it to that secondary unit ⁓ that is separate the main building? ⁓

Michael Ridler: Yeah, you you definitely can. Like obviously when you're running any kind of tubing in an unconditioned space, you have to make sure it gets properly insulated. Like b buy proper insulpex, don't do it yourself. I have experience. So we we did my father's place that way. and to be clear, we didn't buy the right product. We we built it ourselves, which will shock nobody, ⁓ I'm sure. ⁓ but for your customers, like buy an off the shelf insulpex product that's well insulated, but you're exactly right. These low temperature convectors can produce usable heat.

Stephen Magneron: That's a game changer.

Michael Ridler: at ninety five degrees Fahrenheit, right? So it there's huge, huge opportunities for these units.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: I guess the o the only thing though and and I mean i in that in that effort to kind of remove ducts it's it's like also looking I mean there still needs to be ventilation I guess to to all the rooms so I think combining these hydronic systems with maybe some ⁓ some ductless HRVs would ⁓ would be something interesting. because then ⁓ really removing the ducts would be a great way to To to build and and be more space efficient.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, there's come there's there's units coming from Europe. Like all this technology is coming from Europe. Let's be candid. We gotta thank our European brethren because they've been doing hydronic systems for a lot longer than we have. are systems coming from Europe. I just don't have first hand experience with them yet, so can't comment. That are low temperature convectors that have built in mechanical ventilation as well. ⁓ there's been offers to to, you know, let me get my hands on some and play with them, but until I actually do play with them, it's neat, but I have no

Ben: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michael Ridler: No comment on them. The other low temperature convectors that I have experience with, they're fantastic. Like they're they're idiot proof, which is important. Like ⁓ bright people, but we like equipment that's that's foolproof and simple. ⁓ ⁓ the convectors are are really slick.

Ben: Yeah. And I think on the on the ventilation side, I think one possible solution is just like the in independently ducted HRV or or ERV heat recovery ventilator, energy recovery ventilator, like that's the preferred way to go versus tying them into a furnace to get the best quality air and control of that ventilation air to the different spaces in your home. But if all you're doing is providing that ventilation air, you're not worrying about heating or conditioning with that air, ⁓ you're looking at much smaller three inch or so size, which is a lot easier to accommodate and and fish through two by four walls and stuff as opposed to large extensive bulkheads for a forced air heating system.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I'm I'm with you. Like a fully ducted ERV system and again I'm just thinking Ontario right now for anybody who goes why ERV but like a fully ducted ERV system integrated and I'm gonna name drop just because they're the the best at it, like with a centrotherm system. You have really small piping, you can hide that in the chase of the wall, you're not building bulkheads. And and fully ducted is gonna be definitely the way to go. Like it's it's really simple. So

Ben: Awesome. So so we've covered kind of multifamily and we've discussed retrofitting older homes that have existing radiant or hydronic heating systems in it. But what about we're looking at retrofitting homes that are currently forced air? Is it is that a feasible path to to look into to out that ducting, get some ceiling space back, and then put in a hydronic system or is that gonna be I It's not gonna be free and it's not gonna be cheap. But is it is it worth the effort for that?

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I mean much as I did it in my house, I have to be very candid. I'm I'm I'm like an outlying situation, right? Like there's certainly opportunities ⁓ to deploy an air to water heat bump, but I can think of so many other things that I would do in that particular application and it really comes down to what is the issue, right? In my particular case it was thermal comfort was an issue. I wanted do heating, cooling, and hot water with a single appliance. I didn't want to be running refrigerant lines through my house and I didn't want to run ductwork through my house. The ductwork was cost, like let's be really clear. But we'd really have to understand in the existing building that doesn't have any radiant heating or cooling, what is the complaint? What is the issue? Like there's no question that you can retrofit any home into a radiant heating system, right? We just have to be focused on stop looking at the floor, right? Like if you look at my office right here, I've got a lot of wall space that makes for a really great emitter really cheap, right? Inexpensive, I shouldn't say cheap. So there's there's certainly opportunities around it, but it does come down to what is the challenge you're faced with and how do we retrofit into it.

Ben: Yeah. So I guess to that point too, it's like what what are the problems can hydronic heating solve? So there's the the ⁓ comfort piece, if someone is really ticked off with all the bulkheads in their homes and they want to open up the space, that could be one. Would would a hydronic system I'm I'm thinking of my own place here? Like I I love the thought of getting rid of some bulkheads. I have a really tight mechanical room and I'm Trying hard to figure out where exactly I'm gonna fit in an ERV or an HRV into this situation, but would would a hydronic system open up some space compared to a a forced air blower unit or why am I drawing a blank on that? Compared to a ⁓ a forced air heating system?

Michael Ridler: Yeah, so if you're looking at a traditional air source heat bump and a gas furnace, right? Okay, how much how much space am I getting back? can't really make an argument that you'd be getting more space back. But well let's talk about a house I lived in nine years ago. Okay, so I had a house nine years ago that wasn't quite this bad. I had a forced air heating system and I wanted to introduce radiant into that home because of comfort. It was a backsplit, it was miserably uncomfortable, super easy to put down some PEX tubing and solve the problem. You can do that with an air to water. An air to water would have been the way to go. You put an air handler in that replaces your furnace, it slides into your existing ductwork, and you could put some radiant floor, a radiant wall, radiant ceiling, whatever you like, into any room way easier than you can do ductwork. But outside of that scenario, I personally wouldn't see a case for ripping out bulkheads. They're already there. I think I'm doing a disservice and misleading and saying, ⁓ yeah, air to water can go into every single scenario. You know, unless you've got a room that needs additional comfort added to it where you're laser focused and I shouldn't use the word comfort, but more energy into that space, I would argue there's other better solutions available to you.

Ben: Interesting. ⁓

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: I think I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you there's also I mean we spoke about zoning like zoning with with ⁓ with air-to-air system is definitely much ⁓ more than zoning with just a hydronic system. So maybe that's something that also would I mean split level you know, a lot of floors ⁓ ⁓ those temperature differentials I think really is a is is a big point. If you're trying to hit multiple zones in a house that's has a funky layout, I definitely see hydronics as ⁓ a as a good option for that.

Ben: Yeah, and if I could add quickly on that one too, I think the zoning piece is another thing I'm thinking about. So I've got a four level split. And the temperature distribution sucks. saying. And then also like I think part of it too, I look at an advantage of hydronics is is you're getting off of that single floor register in each room that is always where you want to put some piece of furniture. And then so right now we've had a we've started before we

Michael Ridler: Yeah, for sure.

Ben: before we're recording we're talking about the the heat temperatures, how warm it's been. And we've had we've got central air conditioner w conditioners. We've had it had it cranked or or going to try and keep our house to just like twenty two or twenty three. but our master bedroom is really hot because we've got a dresser right over that vent. And it's like okay, we open up a couple of drawers to get that circulation going, but it's not really working. So you get that circulation better. But the zoning I think is is one that could Potentially add to it. I was gonna add as well, as part of a retrofit project, if you're doing a larger deep energy retrofit, you're improving the envelope. Once you're adding a lot of insulation to that home, you don't really do temperature setbacks at night ⁓ as Homes are more better suited in that place to be maintaining the temperatures in the spaces differently. But that's also where zoning can help. Like if you're only in your bedroom to sleep, you can always keep that tuned down a couple degrees and and Zoning with a hydronic system makes that that simple. And I think Michael was a conversation you and I had in the past that the forced air zoning dampers, not only are they complex and costly, but there's a lot of snags and issues with them over time too. Whereas the simple valve on a on a hydronic pipe is a lot simpler and more durable and long lasting.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I mean the the hydronic heating system is is really the most resilient way to do it as long as we don't overcomplicate it because we do sometimes have the tendency of like, you know, building really cool looking spaceships, which is good, right? But mine is not a spaceship. Like everybody, you know, a lot of people are like, Mike, let's see your system, it probably looks really cool. It doesn't, it's boring. I use the most basic controls, like that's just in my nature. Here at Eden's lab, like you wanna see some cool stuff, come to our lab. We got like really cool ⁓

Ben: Yeah.

Michael Ridler: neat things, but that's not my house. Like I I travel a lot. I don't need my wife calling one of my contractor friends to to figure out how to unwind NASA in my basement. But when you talk about the thermal comfort component, I think it's important to note that you know you're heating your you're you're cooling your whole home and you're describing your house, right? Like you're you're running your air conditioner because you're trying to cool the space. You're describing my house. Well the reality is with a hydronically zoned, a radiantly zoned system I don't actually care what temperature my living room is, right? So at night, if I'm just cooling my bedrooms, I'm pretty darn happy about that. There's an energy gain to that. There is certainly a a benefit to the utility. It's a benefit to me from comfort standpoint. You know, but it it's understanding what that conversation is. I guess if I re-pivot what I'm saying about air to water, it's going to be a struggle to have air to water in residential new construction. But I'm not talking about the kind of work that you might do or Fellipe or Stephen. Because we're thinking a little bit smaller scale. The people who are building a home that are not going to turn it over in three years, those are the people that are going to have these conversations with us. And I think that's the place to really be focused on radiant heating. Right. If you're just buying a house, which is very commonplace now, is my starter home and I live here for three to five years, then I'm going to talk to somebody like Stephen and build a home I'm going to live in for ten or fifteen years. That is where an air to water discussion or a ground source discussion makes a ton of sense.

Ben: Exactly. So

Stephen Magneron: Yeah, when we talk about comfort, we've mainly been talking about the thermal comfort that comes with radiant. But when you look at it from the silence ⁓ the system, it's as loud. We're so accustomed to the furnace firing up the blower, making, you know, whirring up, so to speak, the airflow that comes with it that can provide some people with discomfort, ⁓ maybe not ⁓ but a part of the population will be ⁓ uncomfortable with even though it's ⁓ delivering the amount of heat or space. conditioning. there's all these other benefits that come with the which really makes ⁓ me to investigating it

Michael Ridler: Yeah, there's there's something to be said for these these tighter and tighter energy efficiency homes. You hear everything, right? I I don't have that problem. like my house is not very energy efficient. I'm working on it, right? But I hear from a lot of builders that like the smallest things people hear in those spaces. And the reality is when you start looking at technology like ground source or air to water or phase change You know, just simple things like not using a heat pump water heater and using a phase change battery. Phase change makes no noise. It's it's so boring. Right? It's it's it's just a box. It's got no parts, no noise, no sound, doesn't doesn't interact with you. It's it's boring. And we gotta recognize that boring is is really nice if you're a homeowner.

Ben: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Boring is good. So Fellipe, I wanted to ask you one question before we wrap up here. What what's your main interest in in looking into into hydronic systems? You did mention your one multifamily project where the ducting has been a pain to put it lately. but what are what are the other parts of it that are that are intr intriguing to you?

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: Well honestly it's ⁓ well in retrofits and I've had multiple clients and and and when we're going through the mechanical strategy yes like w we look at it in two ways right first is the envelope and then it's the mechanicals right so we're looking at the envelope, yes, we're tightening everything, we're trying to insulate as many walls as possible, we're changing ⁓ You know, we're trying to do, for example, and and we're and we're trying to be as minimally invasive. So some projects are invasive. You know you're gonna do it like it's a good scenario, you're doing all from the outside, no problem. But for the ones where you're trying to do as as minimally invasive as possible, for example, we're doing like maybe an Aero Barrier to seal ⁓ to seal up the house. We're changing the windows to triple pane because it's a it's an easy swap. You're not opening up any walls. When we get to mechanicals, most of these houses and and here in Montreal, Quebec, I mean ⁓ the building stock's very old. of of the houses I work on are pre-1950s. They all have ⁓ cast iron radiators. people love it, people love that type of heat. People want to keep it. Removing it is a cost. Not only like you have to remove it, you have to it's it's a it's a whole thing. You can't just leave the pipes within the walls after. ⁓ so just removing the system is is a hassle. And not only that, then you'd have to ⁓ have whole distribution system. So people are wanting to just keep. ⁓ they're they're their cast iron radiators ⁓ paired with the the the nice subsidies that we have here ⁓ I've had three clients already move to to a geothermal system tying it all to their domestic hot water keeping the the radiators and then just adding like some well I I don't know if it's the right term but the mini splits right to to also do the cooling so It just it just works well. It's not invasive. We didn't open up many walls. We're mostly just passing within closets. and you have a tighter house, ⁓ envelope, and a good mechanical system. So so it every retrofit is building dependent. meaning every strategy to be adapted to that certain building. And when you're trying to do a minimally invasive budget conscious renovation, think hydronics really ties in very well. I mean if you know you're gonna knock out all the whole house and open up all the all the all the walls from the inside, okay, maybe then there's there's other advantages but or other solutions to go for it, but it's been working well.

Ben: Yeah. Well that sounds good. And I'm I'm drawn back to a comment that Michael made earlier, like just comparing the hydronic system to to the forced air and just the size of of the pipe. And you just look at the the properties of three quarter inch pipe compared to ten by eight by ten duct, and that's just looking at really the amount of heat you can carry ⁓ in a fluid, like typically a a water glycol mix, versus how much you can carry in air. It's it's so much more. But then also we look at the temperature. Of of what we're heating with. We can bring down that temperature a lot. And there's a recent podcast with Robert Bean, I think it was on the Building Science where he's talking with another fellow and with Kristof and through hydronic systems and talk about if if your heating loads are low enough, if you don't have a super high amount of thermal flux with your walls, you can heat a space to a comfortable condition with just 26 degree Celsius fluid. Like it doesn't need to be that warm compared to forced air systems can be double that or or more for for that heat. So it's a lot more efficiency beyond just being able to use a heat pump system compared to natural gas or electric resistance. Like it's just how we're heating the space with more comfortable, more reasonable

Michael Ridler: Yeah, the the opportunity is that any kind of water based heating that we do, we have so much flexibility that goes into that. We've got the ability I work in degrees Fahrenheit, but the the the ability to heat a space with ninety five degrees Fahrenheit is significant. Like you look at some of the low temperature convectors, I we're not talking insignificantly, we're talking 8,000 BTUs out of an emitter that's running with 95 degree water, like that's unheard of, right? And it's it's not, we haven't invented anything. This technology's been around in Europe for decades. You know, it's just a matter of adopting in what we do. And Fellipe one of the things that you had said is, you know, using a w ⁓ a ground source heat pump is a really powerful way to do it. And what I would challenge you on your next project is get rid of those mini splits, right? So what I would say is look at using a water to water system. keep those cast sectional rads because you're right on the path with that and then look at how could we use some low temperature units for cooling in spaces because the reality is it's gonna be much much easier and now we've eliminated some extra heat bumps. You can just rely entirely on that ground source heat pump So

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: And that's what that's what I meant. It was just it just looks like a mini split, but it's actually water going to it. So though I I just didn't know what the right distribution it is, but yes. A convector that just looks like a mini split. So the clients it's to them it's the same thing, right? So yes, it's a convector that's running a a code loop on it and you know they're just relying a hundred percent on it. Which again works super well. we've had ⁓ we've had I mean, when also that system doesn't work.

Michael Ridler: Awesome. Yeah yeah, convector, convector, yeah, yeah. So great opportunity.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: The whole house doesn't work. there's its tiebacks to it. But I think, you know, ground systems also have their certain trickiness. Like ⁓ I I know for one of my clients, ⁓ this winter, peak of winter system just failed, and then no heating, ⁓ no hot water, so so ⁓ that that's a bit harder, but ⁓ I mean we're we're getting better at it the more we do it. the The less mistakes people are gonna make, the better the technology is, and I think that's that's the only way going forward.

Michael Ridler: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Like with anything, it's all tied to who's designed it, who's installed it, whether it's a ground source heat pump or whether it's a gas boiler, right? And when the market is small, like the ground source heat pump market in North America is one percent of the market. It's not very big. So we we tend to hear about the challenges that come from it. But unfortunately every industry, whether it's automotive or ours, has its challenges ⁓ but it's also an opportunity. There's an education component to learn from what didn't work and we just don't do that again. ⁓

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: One other thing is is I mean know that for example if I'm looking my mechanical contractors here when I'm when I say a mechanical contractor, I'm talking about a ventilation contractor, they're not used to to plumbing. so so I know that it it kind of brings in a new trade, right? When you who's distributing that, ⁓ I mean, and I'm talking here, it's it's a plumber. And that's kind of a dig difference, I think, I think from the from from the European market, because most of these plumbers also do ventilation systems. So so they have the that dual knowledge, I guess in Europe, where for them it's the same thing. So I think the mark mark as the market grows, we'll we'll have the those contractors that are that are skilled to do both installations, whether it be ducts or whether it be running pipes. But for now I know that that's one of the like if even if for for for all the the installations that we wanted to do in our project, well there wasn't many plumbers that worked with those hydronic systems combined with those air source heat pumps. So so it it made it a bit harder. But I think the market's gonna get better and better on that.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, I think you're right. There's certain markets where it's stronger than others, like where the market has just developed. Like in Ontario in particular, the the largest ⁓ manufacturers and OEMs of G are here, right? So there's already like this intrinsic market of people that are familiar with how to deal with water, how to deal with the ventilation. But every market's different. Like I think if you go to the East Coast, it's exactly as you said. There's there's a lot of hydronic knowledge. They're trying to transition to cold climate air source heat pumps. And there's there's opportunities to learn lessons. And that's that's part of why I find it so fun to travel is to sort of think outside of the box and understand that what might be second nature in Ontario is is not necessarily second nature in Quebec. ⁓ importantly, the way we do it here, it may not be second major, but it doesn't make it right. So I learn an awful lot of really neat things about how other people are doing things. Like, you know, there's there's a lot of opportunity to learn as we travel. So

Ben: Yeah. And I I guess one thing too on the like on the skilled trade end of things, we talk about a plumber needing to install a hydronic system, like they might not be doing it, but the vast majority of the work correct me if I'm wrong with this, Michael, but the vast majority of work to install a hydronic system is within a plumber's standard wheelhouse. Like it's not any specific new processes. It might be new equipment they're installing, but they're connecting pipes or doing joints and they're installing the the the fixtures or distributors.

Michael Ridler: Yeah. I mean the the reality is that transitioning from the traditional plumbing work of a boiler To a heat pump, specifically a hydronic heat pump, is not rocket science, right? Like there's a I have a video online, it's it's all about how heat pumps are not boilers, but people shouldn't be scared of it. Like there's some new nuances. We don't want to apply all of the same concepts that we learned as we were doing boiler plumbing work to an air to water heat pump, but we're not starting over, right? Like we need we need to be very conscious of there's a lot of similarities between an air to water and a ground source heat pump. We just have to understand what's different. And there is a lot of really good training available. Like there is CSA accredited training that you can go and take and get very familiar with it. But the reality is that if you're going to do your first hydronic heat pump, you need good partners. Like you have to be dealing with a supplier that knows what they're doing, that deals with a brand that's got the experience. Because one of the challenges that we're going to face, and it's also an opportunity, is there's going to be an awful lot of experts show up, right? And there's going to be a bit of a race to the bottom. And we've got to find that middle point of like this, this is this is my budget, this is what I'm willing to spend. And I wanna operate with people that know what they're doing. I don't wanna be a guinea pig, so

Ben: Yeah. Well, I think we've had a great conversation today. Looks like we lost Stephen a few minutes ago. I think his connection dropped or he had something he had to go ⁓ run and care of. But thank you both so much for for joining the conversation. I think radiant radiant hydronic heating systems, like there's a lot of potential. I think we've covered a lot of interesting points on that too. Like it's not it's not necessarily a solution for everything, especially on the retrofit side, if you don't already have hydronic heating radiant heating throughout your home. It's not, ⁓ you need to rip out your forced air and and do this. If you're looking at a full gut reno, anyways, and depending on the homeowner priorities, it's something to to consider if everything lines up. But but there's a lot of potential for this both in providing comfort for the homes and also having the impact on the on the grid as we started up off discussing. So thank you both very much for for joining the conversation today. Appreciate your time.

Fellipe Falluh | Retrofit: Thank you, Ben.

Michael Ridler: Yeah, happy to be here, Ben. Thanks, buddy.