005 - Rethinking Residential Electrification

Ben: Welcome to Renewing Homes, the Residential Retrofit Podcast. I'm your host, Ben Hildebrandt. This show explores how we improve existing homes through better planning and design, better retrofit work, and better decision making. Better homes through better retrofits. Enjoy the conversation. All right, joining me today are Jason Rowley and Nathan Horton. Jason's coming to us from BC Hydro. He's a policy specialist with an extensive background on the in the electrical end of end of things in the industry. Nathan Horton is this CEO with OneClick Energy Solutions. they're doing electrification solutions for households across the country. We'll get a bit more into that as we dive into the conversation here. Before we do, Jason and Nathan, do you each want to take a minute to kind of provide a bit more of an introduction to yourselves and and where you're coming from?

Jason Rowley: I'm Jason Roley. I currently work with BC Hydro. I'm part of the market transformation team. that's where we basically kind of take the weird and the abnormal And the innovative products that basically might be coming out and basically trying to make normalize it more here in our landscape here. my background has been electrical since 1989, been involved with the electrical industry. past 22 years up until basically May of last year, I was the can the chief electrical inspector for City of Vancouver. So heavily versed in Canadian electrical code, and it's it's been a while in coming, but BC Hydro, and I'll just speak for BC. PC Hydro on this point. It's it's having a subject matter expert like myself coming in with Canadian Electro Code knowledge is kind of it's it's been coming and it should have been done a long time ago because unfortunately we're we were a siloed world where basically utility standards did one thing and Canadian Electricode did another. And when they meet in the middle, it doesn't always jive. And unfortunately the contractors out there have to pay the price as well. So my role here is basically hopefully iron out those wrinkles and ensure that basically what we do as utilities and what we do as Canadian electricode users are gonna meet and hopefully work in going forward along with energy managed stuff and all that stuff. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell and over to you, Nathan.

Nathan: Just hearing that to start, that's a breath of fresh air. Jason. my name's David Horton. so I I run One Click Energy Solutions. So we specialize in electrifying households, to what you said, Ben. we operate in BC, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New Brunswick, PEI and throughout all of Ontario. and really specialize in heat pumps, battery backup systems, load management techniques, smart panels, panel upgrades, and full electrical full electrical services. With an emphasis on like deep energy retrofits. So really working collaborately with organizations across the country that are are focused on that and coming in to handle the electrical side, which gets us into the innovative and the creative, when it comes to how to do these retrofits. And as I said, breath of fresh air to Jason, working with electrical utilities and and policy right across the country.

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. Great. It's great to have you on for this conversation. so electrification is one of the topics that that really comes up a lot when we're talking about retrofits and deep energy retrofits to housing across Canada and and North America. But let's let's start off, Jason. Can you kind of define electrification, what it is and and why it's important and as part of a retrofit conversation?

Jason Rowley: Yeah, sure. so electrification basically in a nutshell is is the process of replacing fossil fuel power equipment in homes with with more electric efficient type devices. So it's basically it's fuel switching is what it is. here at PC Hydro we have a pretty green power source here. it's it's one of those ones where basically it's generated from a renewable and low carbon resource and it makes electrification make sense here in the environment. So yeah, in a nutshell, it's basically yeah, it's it's changing the old gas appliances to new. That includes your car as well. I mean, as much as much as we love our combustion engine vehicles and all that, we like to basic see a little bit more electric vehicles out there as well and basically kind of bring down that that G H G emission that basically is on tip of the tongue on most most planners minds in a lot of jurisdictions.

Ben: Yeah, and and there's a lot that that comes to the electrification piece. You mentioned like BC Hydro with all the hydro dams across British Columbia, that electrical grid is a very low emission source of energy. And Ontario as well as another hydro dominated grid and and Quebec and there's several across across Canada that we utilize, but despite that, the households aren't really utilizing that. emissions free or minimal emissions source of energy. I ran some numbers several years ago when I was going to do a presentation at BuildX in Vancouver. And at that time, I think it was the 2022 numbers where 60% of households in British Columbia, the primary source of heat was natural gas. And so when we think of electrifying, that's that's a huge step. And a huge change to take all of that load off of natural gas and place it on the electrical grid. So it's it's a bit more than just simply switching on a natural gas furnace for a heat pump. There's other implications to that. And and Nathan, you've been doing a lot of work in that area. So so what what are the challenges that we look at when we look at electrifying homes and and communities?

Nathan: I I think the the idea and the desire to electrify is great. However, the restrictions when it comes to code, the restrictions when it comes to equipment availability, particularly for Canadians, those are some of the biggest roadblocks we have. I mentioned smart panels, for instance. you go into the US, California, most most areas, smart panels are dominant now. they become a normalized product install that can manage the loads within the house. So you're not doing these massive service upgrades. You're not bringing in more power. load management. you know, our electrical code classifies load management as you can use a load manager on EV. so unless you get special permission, and we can in BC, Ontario, they've made it part of ESA, so we can use load management, you can't mitigate these issues. So it becomes very expensive. you know, if if you're your average consumer and you're going to a fully electrified home. Without these type of technologies, without load management, without these mitigating things that you can do, if you're constantly having to do service upgrades, it becomes very cost prohibitive. So it's it's not that the technology is not available. It's we don't have access or we don't have the code variances to actually install it. So those are some of the big challenges that we hit. you know we look across the country and It's it's starting to move. The needle's starting to go forward. load management, for instance, in BC, BC's fairly acceptable when it comes to it, but it's still a variance because it's not part of their electrical code. Ontario is really the only province right now that we can just pull a permanent use a load manager. Everywhere else we have to get a variance, we have to talk to the utility. So it's it becomes restrictive, and then installers don't know it's available because it's not part of the code book. So there's there's

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Nathan: technology available, we just can't use it. i is really the the nutshell.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. They're ahead of the codes and the code cycles and and such. So you talk about load management to avoid an upgrade, but can we can you take a minute, Nathan, kind describe what what does it consist of if someone does have to look at upgrading their their panel or or their service? What are the things you could potentially be looking at?

Nathan: It it depends on area. and and I'll I'll kind of lead him with that. you know, in Ontario it it's not as restrictive. you know, your average service upgrade if you're going to a 200 amp service is gonna cost you thirty five hundred bucks. Where it does get restrictive is what the utility is gonna cost charge you on top of that. so we've seen it

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Nathan: as high as ten thousand dollars the utility wants to charge because we're bringing in that new power. if we get in the East Coast, like Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, if I do a service upgrade there, I have to upgrade the entire house. And I I'm

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Nathan: talking, you know, I I'm changing out the plugs in the kitchen. I'm putting lights on the outside on every entrance of the house. Like you're you're getting pretty extensive. So that service upgrade now, you're getting into $10,000, $15,000, $20,000. And and it it really makes a roadblock. Where is the service upgrade really needed? That that's the the first question. and secondary, is that really going to be a benefit for the grid long term if we start upgrading every single house to 200 amps?

Ben: Yeah. And and really quick, that's an interesting point, which I was unaware of. You talked about in the East Coast, there are like some areas where if you have to upgrade the service, and we're we're talking homes that are many like early 1900s or even in the eighteen hundreds constructed with with old electrical systems. So you're not saying it's not just upgrading the panel, but you have to bring the entire electrical system in the house up to current code, which is of a massive impact. And some of the roll-ons too, which Have been discussed, which I don't think you quite touched on. We don't need to dwell on, is like the potential of, okay, we can update the panel at the house. Do the wires from the panel to the energy meter are are they sufficient? From the meter to the main, to the grid mains, are those sufficient? And then we get to transformer capacity. Like there's all these roll-on effects. So having the ability to take on these additional electrical loads for electrification, the ability to take on those additional loads without having to enhance the panel is a very important thing to be able to do. So so when you we talk about load devices, energy management systems, what what are the different options that we're that we're looking at, Nathan, that that can be implemented to to keep within the current service size?

Nathan: The two big ones we're using right now is either existing electrical data. and that that's that's primary. So in most cases, we can pull 12 months of existing electrical data, show what the peak demand is. And and for your average home, surprisingly enough, you really don't need a service upgrade when you look at existing usages. it does become challenging when either people have moved in and moved out. if you're in tenanted situations. Where you may not get access to that. And then the secondary option we'll have if we can't get access to that existing data is load management. so we use a Siemens I have load manager. it it works fairly simply, where we connect in the heat pump in with an a another device in the household, let's say, you know, the range or your dryer that uses the exact same breaker. so instead of adding load, we're really taking these two devices and and programming it that if we hit a peak. load in that house that exceeds what the panels rated for, one of those devices will shut off. So it's a it's a pretty simple technology. and it allows us to add that new capacity to the house without actually adding any new load to the home. you're really just mitigating how it's being used. But first and foremost would be utility data. A lot of provinces now do have the green button access. so it's it's we can go through, we can pull the data for the 12 month period. We can take a look at peak. that's that's usually our first and foremost. but it's also I I think the secondary to that is educating contractors that it's even available. And that's the that's that's the big one, right? Right now, if you call and you you want to get a heat pump installed or or you want to start electrifying your home, most of the time you're calling a mechanical contractor. and it's it's one of the reasons when we set up our company, we're pretty electric at this point. About eighty percent of our guys are electricians. Cause that becomes the largest challenge with electrification. when you want to do heat pumps, you want to do all these installs, it's really understanding the electrical capacities and how to how to read existing load capacities, but also what technologies are available.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. And that's interesting too with the like that existing utility data. And that's really just kind of confirming if we're looking at adding, I'm just gonna pick a round number here for illustration. If we're looking at adding a 25 amp load to the panel, or let's say 30 amp, then is there that capacity in the peak? And through reviewing the u utility data, you can look at is there is the current peak of the home, are they already at 80 amps? for their peak, or are they, and and Nathan, I believe, and and Jason, I think you guys have talked about this in the past in presentations that I've seen, that in reviewing that usage data, many homes are even below 50 amps for their peak. And so they do have that that room. So that's, as you said, Nathan, that's the easiest path. And then the load man management devices are great. Like you mentioned kind of the primary secondary load devices. There are other ones and Passphelcelberta, I'll link to the report in in the show notes. They have a report that they published a few years back about electrification without a service upgrade. And they looked at the different options. So there's the the primary secondary device or priority load share devices. And then there's also the other ones, I can't remember the term, where it just mon it has a breaker that's controlled and it's monitoring the the total load coming off the panel. And if that load exceeds a certain Threshold like 80%, it won't let that load on the controlled breaker come in. And then we get into smart panels themselves. And do we have the breakers themselves potentially controlled with that's like looking further, further out, especially regulatory wise, into into what into what's available. Jason, what what would you add to the conversation at this point in in your perspective and in options for maintaining that existing panel when we electrify?

Jason Rowley: Yeah, yeah, there's been a whole lot said to to unpack here as well. I mean, Nathan has put it succinctly as well. Ontario is leading the charge on this. They've they've kind of basically allowed energy management systems into the code through their bulletin system there as well. basically the way it works, let me just maybe explain the history of how the Kidney Electrical Code works and how it's managed. so like I'm one of the part one members, so I'm the one, one of the ones. There's 42 of us that are voting members that vote to determine whether or not changes happen in the Canadian Electrical Code. And if you want to point a finger at me as being the problem, that's fine because we know it's a

Nathan: Yeah.

Jason Rowley: problem. code is archaic and it's very slow on changing as well. technology is changing. Like after this conversation today, there's probably something new out there that's going to be available, right? I mean, that's how fast technology is moving. so right now. We do have energy regulating equipment now on the code book. We just had a June meeting in Halifax. That's now in. So we got a new publicized code book that's going to be available through CSA towards the end of this year. It sounds like it might be January 1 adoption where it's going to get published. Now the way that works is okay, there's now an approved standard. Now the provinces now determine whether or not they're going to accept that standard or make amendments to it. And Ontario does make amendments, BC does make amendments. and that's a time factor as well. So standard gets approved. By the end of this year, BC now gets a hold of it and Technical Safety BC is our is our purveyor here is in BC. They look at it and they review it for about a year. And don't don't ask me why it's that that long, but they it's like a year-long process. And then they submit it to the BC government to become the new BC electrical code. Problem is that is basically we need these rules like basically four years ago, or if not 14 years ago. So we here at BC Hyde we've understood that. So we're creating a mini council here in BC to do similar to what Ontario has done is we're gonna basically we know this code rule is gonna come into effect and it's gonna take some time because of paperwork. We're gonna allow you to basically pull that code rule out of that future code book and apply it now without having to do a variance program. We're gonna do some kind of provincial variance here to allow it so that basically you can then basically apply for a permit like you do in Ontario, like Nathan said. Where you just walk up, you get your permit, you're out the door, you use an energy management system perfect. That's where we want to get to. So there's eight HJs

Ben: kinda kind

Jason Rowley: in BC here, like large municipalities that run inspection services along with technical safety BC. So we need to get everybody on the same page so that you're not reinventing the wheel. Hey, I've got this smart device that I want to use for energy management. I I'm in Klona, and then have to redo everything again in Vancouver or Surrey or or whatever jurisdiction. So we're gonna get all BC on board so that basically we can, like I said, emulate a little bit kind of what Ontario's done is have that conformity and allow product, innovative product. smart panel has been mentioned. That is the way of the future. It really is. there there's some couple manufacturers here in BC that are real close. we're just waiting for now a standard for them to develop to. That's the other issue here in Canada, is we don't have a legal standard for for these manufacturers to build to. I know Ontario is using UL 3141 for that particular

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Jason Rowley: standard. We're looking to do that. I'm part of the committee creating CSA 358. That's a standard here in Canada that's going to emulate similar to what UL3141 is. But it's once we have the standard now, the product people can now start building this stuff and improve standards. So those were the two barriers code issues and standards. so yeah, we're we're in the process. We're hoping to have by November something ironed out so that basically we have something to basically work with here in BC. right now, Nathan is right where it's now it's a variance. Like if you're coming to any jurisdiction. You have to kind of come in with a whole game plan and show what you plan on doing, and then it goes through a review. And sometimes you need an engineer to kind of sign off on this as well, which is problematic in itself. It just kind of raises money and a lot of dollars when you start having red seals kind of being stamped all over the place as well. So we're aware of it. We're trying to fix it. But unfortunately, code has always been clunky. It's a little bit slow, a little bit archaic. We did screw up about six, seven years ago when they when we brought EVEMS, the actual standard. didn't actually get approved until just last year. It took seven years to get that over the over the but we had the code rule in effect. Unfortunately, we didn't have a standard and we didn't do that correctly. And why we just stuck with EV at the time and didn't do energy management rate at that point, we wouldn't be talking about this right now. We would have been already basically off to the races. So anyway, that's a couple points to throw into the ring here. I know we're probably talking about something here it's later in, but section eight of the Canadian law code. If we ever have a chance to talk about

Nathan: Yeah.

Jason Rowley: that is the biggest barrier we have right now as well. But anyway, back to you, Ben.

Ben: Yeah. And and and maybe it's a recap a bit, and then maybe we can dive into section eight, because it's like, how do we really roll out electrification? It's a it's a great solution. Like we talk about switching to a lower emissions source of energy for any locations. And and depending on your exact HVAC system or or heat pump setup and efficiencies, even in Alberta with a relatively dirty natural gas dominated electrical grid. electrifying, I believe, is still our electrical grid has has gotten low enough where from an emission standpoint, electrification with with going to heat pump heating, I believe is is pretty much on par, if not a little bit better than natural gas heat. So from an emission standpoint, it's great. But how do we roll this out and make it have a good impact? The other advantage too, you're cutting off natural gas entirely. So you not only don't have to pay for natural gas, you don't have all those admin charges on. on the bill. you laid out excellently like that code process. It takes time, but it's important because these electrical codes are for consistency and and safety across the country. We don't want to just roll in a new policy and push it through in several months without appropriate review. So so I think there is a a reasonable justification in w in why things take time. It's how can we work through it. And so we have those those alternative solutions or variances that that we could push through. And it's just a matter of talking with the municipalities or or whoever the authority having jurisdiction is locally to to push that through and and make it work. But but what what did you want to say about about part eight there of the electrical code, Jason?

Jason Rowley: Yeah, so section eight, and actually I'll just jump back a bit too. Nathan mentioned about and I or maybe as you've been, we have an anecdotal statement here at BC Hydro where basically eighty percent of our services are only forty percent loaded, right? So that jumps into basically now our section eight topic within the Canadian Electricode. Section eight determines what you have to calculate your load as when you're building something new, right? And it is very overly conservative. Section eight, other than some EV requirements that have been added in there over the years, has not been looked at or revamped in about 40 to 50 years. 40, 40, 5, 0, not 14, 15, 40. We're talking decades of a section that's basically been languishing and just sitting there. And I'm pretty sure in those last 40, 50 years, we have a lot more energy efficient devices. That have been basically manufactured over there's. I remember back in the day when I was a kid. I mean, you'd the you hear the compressor on the fridge or the freezer turn on and you see the entire neighborhood lights dim. That that's the reason why code was built like that was because these were

Nathan: Mm-hmm.

Jason Rowley: big, clunky machines and weren't any efficient. We're not there anymore, right? But the code book is still living back in the nineteen sixties and seventies right now. And we have to get that in. So there is a task force, I'm part of it along with some other provincial entities as well, to basically Revamp section eight. Because right now, when we look at new builds, and I know we're kind of talking a little bit more renovation here on this call, but around new builds, if we're basically forcing an owner to basically put a 200 amp system just because a code book tells you to, even though if we use consumption data a year later and it shows that 200 amp panel we only ever clipped in at 60 amps, that's a problem. And that's a problem we perceive at PC Hydro, not only for the homeowner, to basically why are we putting in such a big system, but We have to account for that on the system itself, for the grid itself. So if we then basically have to go, okay, well, we need another dam to be built, because if everybody goes to 200 amps because code tells you to go to 200 amps, that's what we have to plan for. Versus can

Ben: Yeah.

Jason Rowley: we apply on more efficiently, right size servicing is what we're looking for. And use managed devices even in new builds. So that basically instead

Ben: So it's even in new builds.

Jason Rowley: of asking for 200 amps, you have a managed system and a smart panel. That's gonna do all the tricks and balances to basically keep that in check. And now we're asking for maybe a hundred amp servers at best. And that's gonna change basically outlet and grid resiliency and build up and maintenance and all that. That's gonna affect us here at Utility. So section eight is a bit of a barrier. It always has been a barrier. It's been there. I don't know why it has been tweaked more often, but it's just one of those things that kind of has to get done. And it's that's unfortunately gonna take three years because the neck iteration of code is not until twenty thirty. So that's a three year process on that front as well, but at least it's being looked at.

Ben: Yep. And and again, we have this like pathway right now of of proving performance and and it's checking with and and was it Nathan the term used green dot? Some some utilities are are are green dot certified

Nathan: Right button.

Ben: Green Button, right. So there's so there's that green button capability with many utilities across Canada where you can easily access your actual utility data. If you don't have that as an option you're and a homeowner is planning on electrifying down the road wants to avoid this, you can look at there's some consumer available installed by an electrician, energy monitor devices that you can put on your home and kind of verify what your peak loads are and give that that proof of of what the load is. Jason, you also made a a really good point there too about the like the utility considerations. When we look at all these upsize services, as per section eight there of here's the capacity you have to plan for. We have all these I guess the utility is basically looking at a two hundred amp service currently from residents as they look at that service size, not what actually is going to be used, and then you have to plan for that capacity. So if we look at electrifying to reduce emissions, then we have the potential emissions of a whole new dam being put in. Like that's a lot to consider. And it goes beyond that. It's the it's the the poles and wires and their capacity across the whole grid infrastructure and what can they they handle to the to the neighborhood I'm gonna botch the term like the neighborhood grid distribution centers and then transformers and everything like there's all the these roll on impacts so where we can dial things down and kind of recognize what the loads actually need to be and and update section eight. I understand much of the plumbing codes in North America are in a similar position to where they're looking at flow rates from the sixties to determine what pipe sizing needs to be. And that's why a lot of us, even in newer homes, might be waiting forever for the shower to warm up water to warm up in the morning. Nathan, so getting back to a bit more kind of what's happening now on the ground, Nathan, you've been working long and hard or for a few years in in this segment of how can we electrify and keep within the within the current panel sizing, how can we keep within the current electrical capacity of of homes and and complexes. Can you kind of share some of the experiences you had with I believe there was an initial affordable housing project in Ontario that you were working with. And how can you install heat pumps without having to incur some significant grid expansion costs?

Nathan: Yeah, that one that was a little over two years ago and it's kind of when we really started diving into load management. so we worked with ESA here. This is before it became code. so we worked with them kind of back and forth. And you know, I I I I kind of questioned our code and and Jason kind of made a point to it that the only reason we couldn't use load management is because the word E V was at the end. And and that was kind of my argument to ESA was guys, you know, this this makes sense. The the challenge for the property we were at is it was a baseboard heated 77 unit property. each unit had a hundred amp service, but the service coming into the building really made that for had about 55, 60 amps per door in total capacity availability. So that that was a challenge. And we tried to get existing utility data, couldn't get it. it was a tenanted property. So we got 98% of all the the utility data and we were able to show, like, hey, Even after we install heat pumps, we're gonna have 40% availability. but because we were missing two doors, we we couldn't get approval. So we spent a little over a year going back and forth and getting load management approved. And thankfully, when we finished this, it did become code several months later with ESA. But we were able to go in and install heat pumps, and these are baseboard heated homes. So the the logic in it is when we're putting in a heat pump into these units, we're we're lowering. electrical consumption by on average 50 to 60 percent. but it it was an uphill battle. And really the only way to do it was putting a load manager in. if we looked at upgrading the capacity to that unit itself, it would have doubled the the cost. So not a little bit. It would have doubled the cost of installation to do heat pumps and it was affordable housing. so that that just wasn't feasible or a possibility. Nor was it really logical. again, you you're coming off baseboard heated homes and you're putting in heat pumps. everything tells you you're you're actually gonna lower consumption, not raise it. so it it was a challenge. took us about a year. we ended up getting approval on a variance, and then I think it was about four months later it became code for ESA. So it that was a huge benefit. And Ontario, I'll use as our prime example, like we do probably about 200 retrofits a month. In Ontario, where we're switching people off either fossil fuel or oil. And we on average we'll we'll do a load manager or existing utility data about 80% of the time now. the only time we're really doing a service upgrade is if we walk in and there's a fuse box. At that point, you gotta help these people out and we gotta switch it out. Like when you start seeing some antiques on the wall, it it's time to upgrade either way. But in majority of cases now, we can go ahead and we can We can install, particularly in Ontario. it's it's fairly easy, either with existing utility data or load management devices. And what that's done from a cost standpoint, I think back to when I opened one click and we were doing electrification, you're going back about eight years ago. when you were electrifying a home, you were two to three times the cost of putting in a full electric versus putting in an existing gas system. now we're on par. So as we start mitigating those costs, it it it actually evens out. So now for somebody to go full electric, it's it's the same price as if they're putting in a gas furnace in AC. So it it's definitely moved the needle on it. but it it it it wasn't it wasn't an easy situation. It was definitely an uphill battle.

Ben: So I guess to to build onto that and and you've you've really opened the door for for Ontario installers and being able to electrify homes across Ontario and you've taken a lot of learnings to the other areas you're providing services in currently. What I guess what are the biggest lessons learned that you have from that from those initial processes and that you've gained since then? and and what would you advise to to contractors going into areas where they're looking at those variances and and how to how to navigate that path. What would you what would you recommend?

Nathan: I think the challenge with it is is as long as it's not fully code and adopted, you're gonna have a lock of lack of education in the marketplace. So it's whether or not those contractors are aware. you know, I I I had a conversation with somebody earlier this week and it was to that point and it was service organizations and asking how they can better advise their customers when they're looking at mechanical contractors. So I said, you know, here's a list of questions. and and here's the big ones that your customers want to ask contractors on the marketplace is, you know, how are are you going to be the electrician coming in and taking a look at my house or is it being outsourced? you know, how are you going to do I have to have a 200 amp service upgrade or what options are available? and I I think until consumers or the contractors start having those conversations, it's not going to get pushed forward. And it it really does kind of start with the code because if the utilities aren't pushing it. Code's not pushing it. the average contractor in the marketplace also isn't going to push it. So it really becomes almost an ease of use going to 200 amp service upgrade. And it's more challenging trying to find ways around it. And when you really think about it from a business case, it it's better for an electrician to go put in a 200 amp service upgrade than to run a wire. So the it's you know, you you gotta really, I think, have the buy-in. across the board from governance utility policy to to push it forward before you get more wide adoption because there's not a a a big you know there's not a big win for your average contractor to learn and and teach it.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah, so we're kinda pushed against the industry how it's normally operating. It's this is a whole new concept. Jason.

Jason Rowley: Yeah, you know, Nathan's hit the nail on the head here. So and no matter what we do at Code, no matter what utilities say to do, it's still a matter of basically how do we sell it to the contractor. They're the people that are standing in the living room with the end user selling selling what they're gonna be doing. And there's not a lot of incentive for right now I'll use electrical contractors to kind of go, hey. let's basically only put a hundred amp service in because actually a two hundred amp service is a little bit more money and it's gonna cost more money and more money in their pocket to do. So that's a bit of an issue, right? I mean, and and and Nathan also put the puts a notice on we do have code and we have some of these products out there, but do does anybody know about it? There's a small percentage of contractors that are kind of a little bit more with it and are understanding of new emerging technologies, but unfortunately the broader base is not there. with us at here at the market transformation group at BC Hydro, we have an entire division of education to basically do that because we've identified that we can have all the best things out. We got great incentive and rebate programs here at BC Hydro, but are they are they used a lot? No, they're not. There's a lot of people that don't even know about it. They they see the commercials, they hear all the literature, see that read all the literature, but still the uptake is still quite slow. So it's a process point that we have to understand and kind of correct on how do we get more people bought into this because I find that basically one of the barriers is that when it comes to engineering designers and contractors alike, they will just basically go in and wire house like they've done for the last 30 years. It's simple, it's easy, they know what to do. They're not putting they're not putting their thinking cap on. It's just a routine and they go in. We need that thinking cap or an early, early planning. And understanding of basically how do we basically more efficiently do it. Not break the bank though, either, right? Because there's also a cost break here too, right? I mean, a lot of this stuff does cost money, but at the end of the day, it's a justification that, well, that that does alleviate in the future the the the initial expenditure. So Nathan's got great points. I mean, I I'm I'm using this session, even though we're subject matter experts. I'm l using this as a learning curve for myself as well. and hearing some of the things. And and if you don't mind, I I like to have a question. to Nathan Yeah, so the green button data that you get in Ontario. we here in in in in BC we have the same data. we've got a bullet in here through TSBC that basically there's a safety factor. Once you get that data, you allow for the safety factor. It's a twenty five percent safety factor. So you kind of build off of that. but that's for single family well dwellings only. how how do you guys wrap your head around it when it comes to multi and how does that use? Because we don't have currently a safety factor for anything over one building. right now. So is there is that a a bit of a barrier for your for your how you operate in the multifamily world?

Nathan: It it I guess it's a little bit unique for us because I don't really get into like when we deal with multifamily, we're dealing with complexes. So they're still single family dwellings. A lot of our challenges usually come into capacity coming into the property itself, more so than anything. And the challenge is, I guess, when I talk about the green button, the largest benefit is the single family home. Because when we're dealing with multi, the challenge usually comes down to privacy. So I I I go back to that first site, right? And and even on the education side, the only reason I found load management is because I had to find load management. there was no other option or alternative. And when I get my head stuck on something like we're gonna install this site, I I'm gonna figure it out. So whether or not it took six months, yeah, year and a half, we were gonna get there. But on that property that we we held two barbecues. I brought staff there. I was teaching people how to log into their hydro accounts. We we did these camp days pretty much on this affordable housing complex, and we got to 98% of all the utility data. but because two people had just moved in, we couldn't get 100%. So the challenge on that site, and and to your point is we needed 100% of the utility data for the entire site, to to even be go to the ESA and say, here's the data, here's the information, and we're good. And because we were missing two doors, we couldn't get approval. So the utility data is great and it's it it can be very, very useful when it comes to a single family home. but when you start getting into large scale properties, we almost always at this point go in with load management first. because the the challenge of of securing that information and data becomes it very hard. Ontario has particularly with the affordable housing side, most tenants are responsible for their own billing. So even the property manager can't get us the utility data. So it it there's a lot of privacy restrictions and I think that kind of hits us more than anything. and really even being able to access the information.

Ben: Yeah. And I would I guess I would go along those lines. It's kind of interesting too. Like across in in Alberta, there are many different organizations that are actually doing the billing to the consumer for for the utility. I wonder if there might be a path to like the the information is out there, but is there potentially an easier way for a contractor to get a certain form signed off by a homeowner saying, I reside here, I give permission for this contractor to access my energy use data because that is a huge barrier. Especially to to prove that hey, without any changes, without a load chair device, we can we can go in and and electrify this home and and that's the best path to go.

Nathan: The challenge I think comes down to the privacy right laws, right? And now now we're getting into a whole new ballgame, right? I'm already arguing on electrical code. So I'm not gonna go after the other side of the government as well. w when you're getting into privacy restrictions, like at the

Ben: Yeah, well let's not wonder.

Nathan: end of the day, the utility's hands are locked. that there's only so much they can do. We have really good and it's good for all of us that we have really good privacy laws in Canada. and the utility can't overstep that. So i the challenge is, you know. Existing utility data is great. If you have somebody that's lived in their house for more than twelve months that can get us twelve months of utility data, it's great. but it it's still restrictive. so it's it's a you know, it's a tool in your toolbox, but it's not the only one. So it's you know, that that's why we we will get into load management. We'll get into different techniques and we'll look at different technologies we can do. it's the first one because it's free. that that that's the easiest solution, right? but It doesn't work in every situation, so you need to know what else is out there.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm th I think we'll have to cut we'll have to come back in in a year or two, Jason, once once the code has

Jason Rowley: Mm.

Ben: kind of section eight flushed out a bit, how it's gonna be proposed to be updated and and what impact that's gonna make on actual load size. And that'll be an interesting topic to dive into a bit more and kind of see is like is that is that gonna be not a silver bullet, but that's probably gonna streamline a lot of things where just changing the sizing calculations is gonna open up a lot.

Nathan: That that'll be night and day for us. But and that that's the part kind of we we said at the beginning of the call, right? You know, the technology has moved ten times faster than our legislation. when it comes to electrical code and and what we've done and most codes and building codes, right? And this is a across the board. The technology is moving at such speed right now, that nothing else can keep up. You know, I I I've been in the HVAC industry for twenty years now. And and the way I describe it is, you know, that the biggest thing that happened in gas furnaces with an was an ECM motor in fifty years, right? You know, the efficiency got better, but that was the biggest technology advancement we had in 50 years of HVAC, right? It didn't really change. maybe how it exhausted and the intakes changed, but it the technology really didn't do anything different. And when you look at electrification, every six months, I'm bringing out something new or I'm learning something new. it it's it's a constant evolving world. So it's it's not unexpected that our policy and codes aren't keeping up to what the technology is because the technology is just moving too fast. and and we're c again, consistently and continuously bringing out new stuff. You know, the three years ago, I I didn't know what the words DSM meant. And now we're looking at battery systems that can work with utilities for demand side management because now it's not about how much power do we have, it's how can we use that power better. So the conversation is continuing to develop and that technology gap is just growing, growing, growing. So, you know, maybe, maybe we we push to get the electrical code updated, you know, more so than every three years right now, if that's ever possible. But at the end of the day, it's gotta be done. It's gotta be done right. And it as frustrated as I can be in the industry and saying, Man, I just want to keep moving faster, the technology gap is just growing too quickly. So it's it's we're we're gonna be frustrated and we're gonna have to find solutions that allow us to continue to move forward. But yeah, it's it's just gonna take time and it's gonna take the code updates, I think, to get us there.

Ben: Yeah, well, and I think with the technology advancements, we're all always gonna be behind the the ball. one thing to say is we've had a lot of technology advancements over the past several years, and they're gonna continue. But we do have all the technology and all the tools to electrify homes in ninety percent of cases, without having to increase the service size, or maybe even ninety-nine percent of cases. It's a matter of having the regulatory pathways to do that. And so right now, and I dun I I would argue is like I think the the code process is how it is for a reason. Maybe we can speed it up a little bit. But the main thing too, I guess, is how do we gain a better understanding of of the this variance or alternative compliance pathway and and how how is it pursued and done so people know like Here's how we go through it. And Jason, I'm I would ask you too. I would I would imagine having all these variances that have gone through with incorporating a specific technology, that informs the code changes that are needed. Am I am I correct with that?

Jason Rowley: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. So variances add up, they build up, they stack up. And that's basically kind of what is the one of the impetuses on getting the code changed. So if we got so many people coming in with that same particular variance, that's when basically code decision makers basically start realizing that basically something has to be revamped or tweaked. So yeah, the more the the more variances we do a lot of pilot programs here in BC, with through BC Hydro. That's another key aspect as well. We need that data in order to inform and change code as well. So pilot programs are really number one here in BC for some of the new

Ben: Yeah.

Jason Rowley: stuff coming in.

Ben: Yeah, and especially utility sponsored, like BC hydropilot programs, you're directly involved, you know, all the specific questions and and data points to to look at So on that on that variance subject, and I think Nathan and Jason, you both have some great perspectives on this. If a contractor knows they're gonna have to go down this path, like what what's the ideal process? Or what are the key recommendations for someone wanting to go through a a variance to make it as smooth of a journey as possible?

Jason Rowley: Nathan, you want to tackle this first or

Nathan: Be nice to your inspector.

Ben: Don't have some coffee.

Nathan: honestly, it's it's every every area is a little bit different and unique with how you have to go about it. I I think it's just making sure just having the conversation. Honestly, I I you know, I I think back to getting load management approved in Ontario and you know, I kept hearing no, no, no, no, no from every inspector. I got on LinkedIn and I found the head of the ESA. And then I started working my way down. and you know, I I just started rage dialing these people and finding their cell phone numbers until I could find somebody that would give me the time a day to have a conversation. it's you not always that challenging. most time it's just have a good relationship with your inspector. Like in in majority of cases, people want to see good work get done and they just wanna see it get done safely. so as long as you're you're coming up with a good solution and it's methodical and it's thought out, and it it's being done right. I I I've yet to meet somebody that doesn't want to have a good conversation on it. I think it's just you gotta know your stuff and and have a good conversation. And I will go back to be nice to your inspector. If you're not nice to them, it's harder to get anything done.

Jason Rowley: I'll second that. I mean a former regulator, yeah, be nice to your inspector all the time is always a good way of doing things. But it you're right, Nathan. It's different under every jurisdiction. City Vancouver is basically really gifted at basic picking up that phone and having those early conversations because we have they have the staff, just because there's a large amount of inspectors per square footage of basic real estate here in Vancouver, versus if you look at TSBC, they gotta cover the rest of BC with almost the same inspectional staff as what City Vancouver does. in their geographical region, right? So I can appreciate they don't have the time because they're spread thin, right? So I'm not gonna poo poo on anybody else on any other jurisdiction on that front. Yeah, so I'm always saying basically that it depends on jurisdiction. Have an early conversation, like Nathan said. it depends, like Vancouver, you can get a a variance done within like twenty-four, forty-eight hours. It's not a big deal, right? Because there's review staff to do it. Other jurisdictions that might take two weeks, two months, who knows, right? It depends on when they can get around to look at it. So it all depends on the jurisdiction you're in. If you're a contractor, you should be able to understand the jurisdictions you're in and have a good time on on how to do it. But Having your your your T's crossed and your I's dotted, most of the inspection staff here in BC are aware of energy management and the conversations around it. So they're not saying no, they're going maybe. Now it which is a good progress here. Instead of no, it's now a maybe. And then they kind of start talking amongst themselves. So again, it depends on the jurisdiction, but early conversations are the best. Instead of walking in the door on Thursday and expecting to have your permanent on Friday. you're probably gonna be living with a little bit of disappointment around those fronts, right? So having a little bit more realistic timeline on when to basically get a permit, having some conversations early on.

Ben: And and I think this that that conversations early on, it really ties back to like the proper the proper planning process for for retrofit or the technically the the integrated design process. It's bringing all the parties to the table early on. So when you have your your HVAC and electrical contractors at the table in the early stages, we want to do this with our retrofit. We want to electrify this home. And it's like, okay, electrification, what's your panel? Okay, we're gonna This is going to be a bit of a journey. It's like right after that meeting, get the local authority having jurisdiction on the phone, the the right people and and talk with them and kind of see this is what we want to do and and that can help inform the early plan. It's not something you kind of try and squeeze through and then the inspector shows up on site and and is like, This isn't what I was planning on looking at today. And and that that that case in point is is kind of That's that's not treating your inspector nicely.

Nathan: Yeah. You gotta always keep in mind, right? As much as you know, as contractors we're learning in a lot of the cases, it's we're educating everybody around us. you know, so don't expect that your inspector is fully knowledgeable on it. They're knowledgeable in their code, they're knowledgeable in their book, but you gotta you you always gotta be a good teacher. and it's it's having good information and good knowledge and again, not expecting that everybody knows what you're talking about, because in a lot of cases they don't. or they're not as involved or they're not as knowledgeable in it. So it's it's you gotta be a good teacher. and and I think that's helped us quite a bit in most areas and provinces with getting approvals done. like we do a lot of load management in Newfoundland, we do 7BC, obviously right across Ontario. but you know, when we we started doing these, it it was having those conversations and getting on the ground and explaining what we've done, explaining, you know, use cases, explaining Ontario code and again, not not going in and you know, demanding, but going in and trying to be a partner. The more you can educate everybody around you, the easier it is to get things accomplished.

Ben: Yeah. education and conversations. not just dictating we're not we're not mansplaining to the inspectors or anything anything like that. and I think Jason, you you mentioned earlier like some of the work that BC Hydro is doing and on that education piece, like educating contractors and homeowners, like what what do you see as the best path for having these conversations and and educating the homeowner side of of this equation.

Jason Rowley: Well, yeah, we're not down at the at the homeowner level per se. I mean we put on events where basically homeowners are always invited to come out too. we're heavily embedded in all the associations within BC, right? So we've got the Electrical Contractors Association of BC and the Mechanical Contractors Association of BC and then the institutions BCIT and technology trade institutions well so and then all the energy advisor associations as well and there's a lot of them right there's a lot of people out there so our education wing is really Really immersed in all these, so that's how we get the word out. So once we have a policy, a plan or a program to basically roll out, we go through our association partnerships to ensure that basically that gets us like a 70-80% kind of blanket over most of the market. and then we do also do through PowerSmart here, we do a lot of commercial type explanations on some of our PowerSmart stuff as well. So we try and get the word out as best we can but when it comes to the finite, the technical, we're in involved at the association level.

Ben: Yeah. And it's it's getting the the experts in the industry versed and so that homeowner education, it's having them equipped to have those conversations directly with with the homeowner. so Nathan and then Jason as we're as we're kind of wrapping up here in in this great conversation and be great to have an update in another year, kind of see where things are going. what What gives you optimism right now in in where the industry is going in terms of of electrification, Jason?

Jason Rowley: Well, I I think it's good. I we don't even use the word electrification here in B C hydro anymore. We're now all about energy efficiency, right? So it's not basically whether or not to electrify. It's now right sizing and how effectively you use that electrification that you basically now bought into so we're now all about efficiency so how can you basically smartly use the power that you currently use is kind of what we're keying on and that's our focus and our push going forward for the next five, 10 15 years is we already basically have people in the electrification market. They're bought in, they're fine, they're good. let's efficiently use that so we're not basically over asking of the system.

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. Nathan, what what's giving you the most optimism right now?

Nathan: Jason's response. you know,

Ben: Yeah.

Nathan: you know, last few years, to be frank, it it can almost feel like an uphill battle in a lot of cases, dealing with utilities, dealing with different places across the country. You know, it was always mandated, we gotta do 200 amp service, we gotta do all these things. And that that conversation shifted. you know, I I I've talked to a lot of utilities across the country, and now we're talking about, you know, thermal storage or we're talking about, you know, DSM capabilities, we're talking about battery systems, we're talking about not adding capacity, but how do we manage our capacity? And I think that changes the dynamic of the conversation. And when it's not, you know, one person yelling from a rooftop, but it's it's, you know, the entire industry having the same conversation, that motivates me. that's that's usually when things actually get done and you can start making some real changes and moves in the marketplace. So really Jason's response because that that's what I'm hearing now from most utilities. and the conversations just shifted. you know when when we first started talking about you know load management and all these different techniques, you know, there there was a lot of walls. And now it's, you know, that the doors are wide open. utilities want to have these conversations. You know, everybody's kind of realizing that, hey, you know, do we really need to keep adding this much capacity to houses? to Jason's point, you know, part eight of the electrical code, you're you're that's based on 40, 50 year old appliances that were absolute power suckers. So when you start actually looking at utility data now and we're looking at houses, You know, it's very rare. we have a single family home that's ever going to need more than a hundred amp service. And, you know, we're we're doing a load study right now in 250 homes across Canada. And we have the data to even prove that out. So I think the more people are having the right conversation and this is the right conversation when Jason saying it's the right conversation, the faster you'll see adoption and the faster you'll see code changes, which allow us to put more boxes and more homes and allow electrification to move over faster.

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. Great. I think that's a great point to end on. Thank you both for for joining on this conversation today. One of many that are happening and helping move the industry forward. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time.

Jason Rowley: Thank you.

Nathan: Thanks for having us.

Ben: Thank you for joining me today for this conversation with Jason and Nathan. If something in this episode, in this conversation, resonated with you, consider sharing it with someone in your network. Also, consider sending me your feedback. Let me know your thoughts and what you're enjoying, or even let me know questions you might have about retrofits or something you'd like to hear covered in a future episode. Go to renewinghomes.ca. You can leave a voicemail by clicking on the leave a voicemail button on the right hand side of your screen. Or you can click on the contact button to just send a text message. I'd love to hear from you and hear your thoughts on what you've thought thus far about the first few episodes of this podcast as I try and bring out the conversations and sharing them to help move the retrofit industry forward. better homes through better retrofits. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests and do not necessarily reflect those of any affiliated organizations.