007 - Retrofits on the Jobsite and at Home

Ben: Welcome to Renewing Homes, the Residential Retrofit Podcast. I'm your host, Ben Hildebrandt. This show explores how we can improve existing homes through better planning and design, better retrofit work, and better decision making. Better homes through better retrofits. Enjoy the episode. Joining me today are Steve Norris and Cory McDermott for this episode of Renewing Homes. We're gonna have a great discussion. Before we dive in, Steve and Cory, you wanna just shortly introduce yourselves?

 

Steve Norris: My name's Steve Norris. I have a company called SNAP Building that I've been running for about ten years. I also do some multifamily development work with another company called Plaid Shirt. but for the retrofit, that's primarily under SNAP building.

 

Cory: My name is Cory McDermott. I have a small construction company called Beacon High Performance Homes. We specialize in deep energy retrofits, passive homes, net zero homes, general carpentry. So we've been in business for about four years.

 

Ben: Yeah. And I would say previous to the four years I should disclose Cory and I worked together several years ago as

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: as well at the the SAIT Green Building Technologies Research Lab. today what I really wanted to dive into is mainly Steve, your journey. Cory and Steve, you two have partnered a lot on on retrofit projects and that kind of started out with with your own home, Steve, several years ago now. Let's let's dial back a little bit before that even. Steve, can you give a little bit of a summary of what led you to get into high performance construction and deep energy retrofits?

 

Steve Norris: Sure. Well, I started in the construction industry about twenty years ago. my first job was with Sarina Homes, mid size multifamily development and construction company. but they had just started out. it was two brothers that I knew from when I grew up and I was kind of their first hire. So I started with, you know, a shovel in one hand and then I'd change my clothes, put my fancy clothes on and go to community association meetings and get yelled at for rezoning land that neighbors didn't want rezoned and So for ten years, you know, I kinda had that full gamut experience as the company grew from three to fifteen. we did a lot of fourplexes together. that was kind of the we our wheelhouse until we started getting into some bigger condos. but when I started with them, it was a new career to me. And I had basically negotiated to say, Hey, if I'm gonna do this, I'd like it to be meaningful and the environment means a lot to me. So can we kind of be as green as possible and kind of find that niche in the market. And they said, Yeah, sure, go for it. So it was kind of we started doing the Built Green program, and then we kind of graduated to LEED. Then we started adding some solar. We did a pilot project with SAIT. So it was kind of this evolution of, you know, can we be more green as the company develops? And so I worked for them for about 10 years. And then I when I went out on my own, I was kind of ready to push that envelope a little bit further where you can you know, make some more of those decisions for yourself about what kind of projects you want to take on and how far you want to push that that agenda. So, you know, I did some renovations, some single family builds, Semi-D did a fourplex with some partners and and then yeah, about three, four years ago, you know, Cory and I met from doing a zero carbon project out in Ghost Lake when he was still working at SAIT and we ended up doing some work together and then Started with a pilot project. So we had these three three homes that were being retrofitted, one by Peter Darlington, who's been on the podcast before. And then we had two homes to retrofit, one being for Tyler Hermanson at and Karen at four elements, and then my house as well too. So those were, you know, part of an SSRIA research project, as well as SAIT, as we were working towards a guidebook and a curriculum for retrofits. And we kinda did those first couple jobs together and started the conversation, like, hey, is there a market for this? You know, can you make a living doing retrofits in Calgary? And we're like, Well, we don't really know, but let's give it a go. So that's kinda

 

Ben: Mm.

 

Steve Norris: how we started. And I just realized and I don't know if Cory has been counting, but we're currently on our tenth retrofit together.

 

Ben: cool. That's awesome.

 

Cory: I haven't been counting. I was thinking about that

 

Steve Norris: Yeah.

 

Cory: earlier actually. I was like how many have we done? Trying to think. But yeah.

 

Steve Norris: Yep.

 

Cory: In my mind I don't count those ones with SSRIA

 

Ben: those were some interesting projects and that and that on on my end too, like that that SSRIA project of of looking at those three case studies and and SAT being involved. That was my kind of introduction to deep energy retrofits as well. Really diving into that and and we could go into the weeds. I think we'll we'll pass on it for now about kind of the research group at SAIT what we were looking at to to get into retrofits a bit before then, but we hadn't actually had the opportunity to get into it properly until then and working on the guidebook. So it was really interesting. So Steve, one question for you was was it hard for you? Was it a stretch for you or or for your wife to look at volunteering your own home to to be your first retrofit?

 

Steve Norris: No, I was excited to do it. originally we didn't know if there was going to be funds to be able to be a part of it. And when it c the opportunity kind of opened up, we're like, yeah, let's let's do it. something I always wanted to do. and actually I always thought we'd end up building our own net zero or passive house, but we realized, hey, we're we're in our home, we love it here, we're not planning to move anytime. we've done the whole interior, we have a legalized basement suite already. we're staying.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: So it's worth putting some equity and investment into the home that we're in. And we learned like so much from it. I mean, it became

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: a business, but it also just the learnings of experience everything experiencing all those things that you're selling to a client and providing for them down the road is super valuable.

 

Ben: Yeah. I know looking at Cory's background, he's in his own retrofit house as well. So and Cory, you'd you'd done what w I don't know if your house is captured in that ten you guys are just talking about, but I think you'd been involved in two or three retrofits and then you did your own house, Cory?

 

Cory: Yeah I did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a it's actually a chainsaw retrofit. it's pretty unique. So it's an old nineteen thirties farmhouse which needed a lot of work. It was pretty derelict. I think most people are kind of looking at it as a teardown. we're out in kind of Alderside area, which is just south of Calgary and east of Okotoks. so we wanted to kinda get out to the country. I grew up out here. my parents just lived down the road. We wanted to be close to my mom and dad. And you know, we just had just had a baby at the time. Like Rory was two when we moved in here. And

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: so we're like, Okay, let's get up to the country. We found this place, it was in our price range 'cause it was in really bad shape. sitting on, you know, two and a half acres. And so we just pulled the trigger and went for it and I had had a gap we had a gap in between some projects as well. So I was looking to kind of fill that time. So Steve and I just wrapped up those two SSRIA projects. I think we had just gotten into another one in Oak Ridge or something. And then we so yeah, I kinda had like a three-month gap. So I was like, you know what? Let's just buy the place. We'll move with my parents for three months and I'll retrofit the house. So we did a full chainsaw retrofit on it. Got the air changes down to point eight from like eight, which is pretty

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: crazy. And then yeah, electrified it. There's no gas here. we've, you know, put in some European style windows and doors, got the air changes down, you know, insulated the foundation, fixed that up quite a bit. it was in rough shape. I think this house is on its third foundation. I think it started

 

Ben: wow.

 

Cory: with a dirt dirt floor or dirt basement, and then it was kind of a cobbled concrete one that's just in rough shape and then they lifted it up and put it on a concrete block. so it was lots of really interesting sort of learnings we took from

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: doing this house. which every house we do is a learning. Like we learn so much every time. you know,

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: even only doing ten, it's still we're still every single one we do is different. And that's retrofits generally. But But yeah, it's it's a net zero home. Like we're we're net zero and it just goes to show it doesn't really matter how old it is, like we can do it. And it helps that it's small, but it's you know, we're nine hundred square feet. So, you

 

Ben: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

Cory: know, your surface area to volume ratio. It's a simple shape. So it's like it's like the ideal. You know, the solar into orientation is perfect. Everything is perfect. As soon as they drove in the yard, I like, Yeah, this is the one. It's a good one, we should do it. So yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. And I guess one one little note on your house too, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you don't have a heat pump for heating. You just did it's small enough, you just did a few electric baseboards. Is that correct? Or where are you at now?

 

Cory: We did we did electric base yeah, we did electric baseboards for the first year. and it was fine. It w operated really well. Like I think at minus thirty, the equivalent heat we would need it like equates out to like eighty light bulbs, like eighty one hundred watt light bulbs. So for the layman, you know, it's a a minuscule amount of energy. It's very small. So to heat the house is pretty much nothing. I put in a heat pump since then. and we also have a wood burning stove. Like we have a sunroom that's

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: in like there's a door back there. that goes out into a little sunroom space. We have a tiny, like the smallest wood stove you can buy on the market. And we have one in there, and when it goes down to minus thirty, that's kind of our backup heat. and we'll light a fire in that, open the exterior door and heat the house with that for an evening. And then that'll pretty much keep the house warm for two days. So in

 

Ben: nice.

 

Cory: the real throes of winter when it's, you know, minus thirty, minus thirty five, minus forty type stuff. So it's it is crazy. People don't really understand how heat loss works in a high performance or passive home.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: we just need to get heat into the space somehow. And then it doesn't your distribution isn't as important. it is still important, but If your ERV's doing a good job of circulating air through the house and you know, sucking air through all the rooms and everything, then it's it's it's less of an issue. you just need to get heat into the space somehow. So

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah, and that's interesting how the home can when you have a high level insulation, minimal heat loss, it just holds on to it it so well. And I that's one thing that people don't realize as as much.

 

Cory: Yeah, it's very comfortable. we still have a few baseboards that we leave on in certain areas, just one actually, in my daughter's room. And then we have in floor heat, like a electric mat in the front entry just to dry the boots off in the winter time, which works

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: really well for that. And then that's that's pretty much it in terms of supplemental heat other than the heat pump. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Cory: And it's a mini split system, so we have one unit upstairs, one unit downstairs.

 

Ben: that's pretty nice and easy to install. Didn't you didn't have

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: like preexisting ducting or anything, so just connect it where you needed to. Or you or you did. Yeah.

 

Cory: we did. I I ripped it out. Yeah, I did. It ripped it all out. It was really old and dirty and it's kinda gross, so it just went away and

 

Steve Norris: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: we piped in a new dedicated ERV system.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: and yeah, we got a what's that Panasonic? I think it's a 150 CFM so yeah, and it's a small house, so it's it's adequate. It seems to be working pretty good so far, so

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: we're planning an addition in the next few years, so stay tuned. We'll we'll do an addition and we'll see how it goes. But yeah.

 

Ben: Cool. Sounds good. Yeah, and that's an interesting retrofit and and what you did. And I and I love the view of and and for those checking out this podcast later on that aren't familiar with that term chainsaw retro chainsaw retrofit. It's where you just cut off the overhangs, you wrap a continuous air barrier. And in your in your case, Cory, it w it was a pretty low tech air air and vapor barrier that you did, right? Just just poly?

 

Cory: yeah, I well it's a ten mil poly

 

Ben: Ten mil poly. Yeah.

 

Cory: on the exterior of the framing and then yeah, it's just Tvek on the outside of that for our WRB and second air barrier. So it's kind of

 

Ben: Yeah. Awesome.

 

Cory: yeah, we didn't do anything super fancy there. and I've got a nice little porthole in the stairs that go downstairs. You can kind of see the cellulose through the poly.

 

Ben: cool.

 

Cory: From a deleted

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: window that I've left open and it's like it's in great shape. not having any problems whatsoever there. So for anyone that

 

Ben: Yeah, that's and I th I Yeah.

 

Cory: is curious.

 

Ben: And I think that's one important point too, that you don't need to be super high tech for a lot of these things, specifically for like the building envelope materials. They're we're not

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: waiting for any new space age things. We can do it with what's readily

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: available.

 

Cory: I think you and I have talked about that at length through the past. We need to try and design these so that people can go down to the local hardware store and get what they need.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: we do use high performance, you know, fancy WRBs and and vapor retarders, you know, Siga products and stuff like that. but in certain situations we'll employ them. They are expensive. They're hard to come by. There's a logistical issue with if you need more, because they're not just off the shelf. They're special

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: order. So if we're a hundred square feet shy, that's a problem because we're buying a giant roll and paying shipping and yada yada. So it depends on the project and what we're doing. And some some clients want to go for that stuff, some don't. so And we're okay using, you know, off the shelf stuff. Sometimes it's not ideal too, you know, like we there are certain situations but we're we will go for the specifically the the the vapor retarders. Like I like the Siga Majrex is good.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: and we just used it recently in a preserved wood foundation basement. So yeah. Yeah.

 

Ben: So those those higher performance materials that's if client wants best of the best, you'll do it, or sometimes very specific performance factors you're looking for out of it, hey?

 

Cory: In that yeah, like in that specific scenario, for example, like we really needed that inward drying.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: I still wanted a vapor barrier there. We knew we were super airtight, like on that house we had 0.35 or 0.38 air changes or something. so the house was really airtight. I wasn't worried about air flow through the wall assembly and it's below grade. We can't dry to the outside. We know that it's underground, so we have to dry to the inside. So we're gonna

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: use that. that that specific type of vapor charter there. So yeah.

 

Ben: So we've kind of gone over a lot of what Cory's done with his house. Steve, your retrofit was was also pretty unique as well. You had some considerations and some some good learnings from it. Do you want to kind of give a brief overview of the work that you and Cory did in retrofitting your own home and the tight positions you found yourself in?

 

Steve Norris: Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't say it's unique. It's actually very kinda stereotypical from the ones that we've done since. so

 

Ben: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: our place, 1955 bungalow, we were the second owner. They had added on edition in the eighties, so there's a bit of crawl space that was a bit of an adventure. but I think one of the like, you know, unique parts I guess for us was it it was a full retrofit, so start to finish. Partial ones get a little bit tougher when you don't know how far you're gonna go, but there's some real advantages to doing everything in one shot. and

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: you know, we were able to do that, which was great. So you know, the first retrofit that we did as part of that SSRIA project was, you know, exterior XPS insulation. And then the other project that was a part of it was with EFIS EPS foam exterior insulation. So then, you know, my house was the third. Case of exterior assembly and insulation, we used a Larson type wall with dense pack cellulose. So that was kind of our first, you know, kick at the can on that. And it's become the core of what we do in almost all of our retrofits because it's that off-the-shelf materials. You know, we're wrapping the house with a vapor barrier. Most cases, if there isn't one in place, we're building out walls, adding dense pack cellulose at at whatever depth that we want and then we're wrapping the building again on the exterior. So my house was kind of the first case for that. Cory's made some modifications on you know how we're building them since then just you know for simplicity's sake and effectiveness. So it's

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: been a little bit of modification but really kind of using that same system. Just it's very simple, you know, it's two by fours, it's plywood, it's you know membranes. and it's very flexible. So you can change the depth and the dense pack cellulose, you know, can fill whatever you know shape and size of voids that you're looking at. So there are times when we have to use a little bit of spray foam or some mineral fiber or or EPS or GPS, but that's kind of that Larson type wall or an outrigger whatever you want to call it. It's become kind of the core of what we do. And then, you know, on my place we were able to electrify at the same time, which was great. So it was removing the gas service and all the costs associated with that, replacing all the mechanicals at once. You know, so a gas fireplace, we had a gas stove, hot water tank, furnace, replacing and electrifying all of that, doing the garage at the same time, removing a gas furnace out there, putting in a little heat pump. and then, you know, we had a a legal basement suite that was already fully developed. So we had all this ductwork in the basement ceiling that we weren't gonna rip out. So we basically replaced our gas furnace with a fan coil unit. with an electric backup resistance heat element in it and used a heat pump on the exterior. replace replaced our hot water tank with an air source heat pump, hot water tank. and doing all of that and doing solar at the same time was great as well too, because then you can match, you know, your loads with the size of solar that you're gonna do, you know, with your roof line roof lines as well too. So it there's some real advantages

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: to doing it all at once, as I said.

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah, and it's an interesting project too in the in the different aspects of it. And and you've been monitoring very closely and I can link in the show notes to the webinar that we did earlier this year, kind of looking at your energy use data and how it went in the first couple of years compared to what was what was modeled. So the Larson Trust has become kind of the go to envelope retrofit system for you guys. Is it mainly like flexibility, ease, and is it the best cost cost option in most cases too for you guys in in the experience?

 

Cory: I I think for us. I think for us, yeah. and there's a lot of variables there. Like if you're looking for an R-40 wall, it's

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: probably the most cost effective. If you're looking to add R-5 obviously it's

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: not a good idea. don't even know how you'd do it. but it's apples to apples, like if you're getting out to that, yeah, like if you want to add eight inches of insulation, yeah. Yeah, it it's Larson Wall. And that's what we do. Like we don't really do much less than that. It's kind of where we start, is that eight inches. We'll do more. like we've done ten, we've done twelve. And it's a lot of it's just sort of like we're carpenters, so framing is sort of in our skill set. we can frame pretty quick, pretty easy. Lumber right now is fairly cheap. That might not always be the case. if that isn't the case and all of a sudden it tips the scale in the other direction and somehow mineral fiber becomes really cheap or, you know, something like that,

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: we might switch to something a different method. but it's it's sort of like whatever works for you, I guess would be my advice if anyone's looking for

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: advice on how to do a retrofit. if you're a DIY kind of person, I don't know if I would point you in the direction of a Larson wall. It takes a little bit of expertise and know-how and managing scaffolding and access to to do.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: doing some type of rigid insulation, whether it be permeable or non-permeable exterior insulation would would probably be the direction I'd send you in. permeable being the direction I'd really send you in. there's

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: lot of people doing non permeable exterior insulation that arguably should take a building science course or something. But

 

Ben: ...

 

Cory: yeah. and lo and behold,

 

Ben: Especially if you're just doing an inch or two.

 

Cory: SAIT has some of those available.

 

Steve Norris: Good segue.

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. No. And I and I think that's

 

Steve Norris: Yeah.

 

Cory: Yeah. Just work that in there. shameless, shameless plug.

 

Ben: yeah, shameless shameless plug for some great training that's available

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: out there. online training available. You don't have to be in Calgary. I I think a really good point you made there too is like with the Larson truss, it's it's really flexible in the in the depth in in what you're doing. And when you're looking at adding really much more than R-8 or R-10, much more than just two inches of a board insulation. The value really comes in and doing that Larson truss. And and you said you guys have gone up to a twelve inch Larson truss. If you're adding that on to a a two by four existing two by four insulated wall, you're basically quadrupling the thermal resistance of that assembly, rough roughly. but it's a

 

Cory: Yep. Yeah.

 

Ben: really cool system. So Steve, I wanna go back to something that that you mentioned earlier from the experience of retrofitting your own home and in and living in it and that you can have kind of those lessons to pass on. what are the biggest lessons that that you've seen, Steve, in in living in a retrofitted home and and what are you passing on to the potential clients that you're talking with about retrofits?

 

Steve Norris: yeah, there were so many learnings it's hard to kind of list them all. like we talked a couple of the big ones already, is that you that Larson wall is a really good, kinda simple, flexible, inexpensive way to go. the advantages of doing it all in one shot where you can make all those decisions at one time, remove all your penetrations, remove your gas service. That was a big learning. I think one of the biggest ones for me was just circulation and ventilation. Like it's You know, adding heat to a home is not necessarily the hardest part. It's you know the strata and temperature between your main floor and your basement may still be there depending on how much circulation your ERV is giving you. are you getting fresh air distribution into the bedrooms when you're sleeping at night if you're retrofitting into an existing ductwork system? what are you doing with the cold air that is being exhausted from your air source heat pump water tank?

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: How far are you setting back your thermostat at night? Like you can't set a heat pump thermostat back six degrees and then expect it to catch up on them in the morning in the middle of winter. Pressure balancing. We have some clients that are obsessed with fixed windows because they don't want to open the window and lose their airtightness. But what I realized is my house is balanced. So when I open a window, there's Very little airflow still between in and out because it's not a high pressure differential unless there's wind. So which is something I had never thought about before. Also the quietness of of the retrofit. as soon as we insulated all of our walls and had our windows in place, my wife started opening all the windows because she's like, it's creepy quiet in here. Like we

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: just cannot hear things like the way we used to. So that was great. the other thing I learned is you know you kinda you're watching everything for about a year, all of your solar. We were monitoring air quality, all of our circuit monitors, for our consumption. And and then after the a period of time you just you forget it. You know, you leave it, you let it run, you live your life, and that's kind of the way it's supposed to be. we still, you know, you gotta watch filters and all that kind of things. But at the same time it's kind of a a set it forget it.

 

Ben: Yeah. I remember one comment I think I remember you making years ago, Steve, maybe in your first year or so post retrofit, is that it's kinda like learning to drive a new car. You're just kinda learning the ins and outs and the intricacies of of what the best set points are with this. How do you set up that and and so forth?

 

Steve Norris: Yeah, a hundred percent. Which is funny 'cause we actually bought an E V fairly soon after we finished the retrofit and it's a great analogy. Like it's it's different. I've it feels better, but it's different and they run differently.

 

Ben: Yeah. Cory, would you would you have anything to add from things you've learned living in your own retrofitted home?

 

Cory: It wasn't a lot of surprises. It was it kinda I guess the shocking thing was the the house performed as it should or as

 

Ben: Ha ha.

 

Cory: I designed it to, which is like, wow, okay. yeah, Steve's got a good point. It's it's sort of like how you need to have a a pretty good knowledge I think of how your house works or how a high performance home functions. If you take your average homeowner and put them in a passive home, they're gonna notice a lot of differences or they might even be uncomfortable at first with certain things. so airflow is is a big one. Yeah, like when you open a window, Steve's right. It's like it doesn't do anything. It's borderline useless. you need to open a bunch and need to get like cross wind through the through the house basically at night to to, you know, get any kind of cooling or anything. But Yeah, I you know, I don't have much to add. I think Steve kinda hit everything there. They're they're insanely comfortable. That's about the only add-on that I have. I'd be hard going back to a normal house. Especially the house we lived in before we moved here. it was like a nineteen seventies split level that was insanely leaky and insanely uncomfortable. And we had like frost in our bedroom walls and You know, it's just and then you

 

Ben: Oh man.

 

Cory: go to a house like this and you're just like, wow, it's I can't hear anything. Which I think is it takes the most getting used to. It's just that there's there's no sound that gets in through all that cellulose. and

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: we just finished a project for some clients and they said the same thing. They have three dogs that just camp out on their living room and you'll be there tinkering around in the front yard for half an hour before they even start to bark. 'Cause they they physically need to see you, they can't hear you coming in the yard, which is different, I think, for a lot of people. So yeah, they're quieter, they're more comfortable. The heating systems are usually a little different. Cooling systems not much different, But it depends on on your specific home for sure. Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: I think one of the most interesting things about Cory's place is how he's incorporated the wood stove as kind of a heating element. 'Cause we get a lot of people that ask us about can I put a wood stove in a high performance home?

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: And in a lot of cases the answer should probably be no. But in some cases it's a great option.

 

Cory: That unconditioned sunroom is was a fun thing to play around with. so in the summertime it's great. We get you know, they don't have to condition it at all. It's usually at a really comfortable temperature.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: it's just normal two by four walls that are insulated with fiberglass. I did redo like the air tightness and everything in there. and then the wintertime, yeah, that stove takes about an hour to take it from you know, minus ten or whatever up to room temperature or above that. And then it yeah, it you get like a a nice little sweet spot of like three or four hours if you're running the stove before it's like too uncomfortable and then you kinda have to retreat into the main home. But it does serve to to really help heat the house up quite a bit when it's cold. It's nice to have that in case we have any issues with our heat pump or or backup. We have other backup heat as well, but I also just like the wood stove. It's it's nice. Especially when you're working outside

 

Ben: Yeah. It's a very comfortable heat.

 

Cory: in the middle of winter and you come home and you just get to melt in front of a wood stove, it's great.

 

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. And so did you say, Cory, the did you have any do you have any fans or anything that is circulating that air from that stove room into that you're s it's just the conduction and natural convection bringing the heat in? Yeah.

 

Cory: Yeah. Yeah. So the envelope carries like when I did the house, the sunroom was attached. I built like a rail system under not really. It's not it sounds complicated, but it's not. It's just like some two by eights that I propped up on some concrete blocks and then I pulled the sunroom off the house with a skid steer. And then the

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: insulation goes from like right through and the air tightness goes right through and then I pushed the sunroom back onto the house and then sealed it. So it's

 

Ben: Nice.

 

Cory: it's totally separated. It's a completely separate space. There's, you know, one circuit that goes in there for electrical and then that's it. So it's it's not conditioned in any way. There's no pipes that run through. And I didn't really have the foresight at the time to be like, Yeah, you know, maybe I should run some ductwork in here. And but there w there's no foundation to speak of. It's just kind of sitting on piles. And it's pretty low to the ground. So it's it would have been hard to kind of rough anything in there or run anything through that I wouldn't have had issues with. So we just let the heat kind of radiate into the house and it does a pretty good job.

 

Ben: That's that's really neat. I think it's interesting too to just pull it right off so can get that full wrap, and that was probably a lot simpler than trying to have some continuity on that wall without pulling

 

Cory: Yeah, that's that

 

Ben: it off.

 

Cory: that's such a challenge with retrofits generally is how are we getting that continuity? You know, want that air tightness be continuous. It's it gets really hard to seal through things sometimes, especially old stuff that you know

 

Ben: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think and actually that leads me to like kind of one area I think it's really relevant to go to where you guys have had a lot of experience in looking at that that transition between the exterior wall to the to the ceiling or attic plane for that that air tightness.

 

Cory: Mm.

 

Ben: So Cory, you have the chainsaw retrofit, which is a somewhat common practice in the retrofit world. Let's lop off those overhangs, wrap a continuous air barrier just Around the whole outside of the home. And then you don't have to deal with that transition from the wall to the ceiling vapor barrier plane. But then Steve, in your place, we you didn't lop off your you you kind of kept your existing roof, didn't cut off the overhangs. Do you want to describe kind of the strategy for your house for getting your airtightness continuity there?

 

Steve Norris: Yeah, ours is, you know, traditional stick frame roof from the fifties. And so it's it's got a bird's mouth cut on the rafters and so really we're kind of maxed out at, you know, two and a half inches of of space between our top of wall and the underside of sheeting. So like how do you insulate that well without pulling it off, you know, or chainsawing it? But we love our overhangs. I mean, it's two feet around the house. It's significant if you have to rebuild that kind of that kind of structure and it's like it's protection against the weather. So those overhangs are great. So we didn't really want to remove those. And you know, even though my goal was to not use spray foam in the retrofit, that was one place where we compromised. And spray foam was just one of those things that can fill a space and be an air barrier because continuity was going to be a problem. So we needed a way to tie, you know, this nice new exterior air barrier into what was wax paper. From the original home and some poly in the addition to find a way to make that continuous through all these rafters and to take advantage of that two and a half inches of insulation space because otherwise we'd have a pretty cold spot at the top of those walls. So we basically put some backing in, spray foamed that area our air barriers. So basically use that spray foam as the connection between those. those two layers. And then what that did on the roof side is that we needed to kind of abandon our our eave ventilation and we cut in some low vents on the roof in addition to the existing high vents so that we can get a little bit of pull through there and ventilate basically above our insulation area in the attic.

 

Ben: And that's been working quite well for you so far on that on that end. No no known issues.

 

Steve Norris: So far, one of the things I learned is that once

 

Cory: I don't know how you'd know, there's so much insulation in that attic, it's like you can't even see up there. It's crazy.

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: I know. That's one thing I realized is if you're gonna do any electrical in your attic, you do it before you add seventeen inches of cellulose because you're not going for a swim afterwards. No.

 

Cory: Yeah. No, no, it's like innavigable. Like yeah it's man.

 

Ben: Yeah. And you're yeah, and you're addicts, you don't have the highest slope. Are you just three twelve for your trusses there? Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: Three twelve, yeah. So even though the insulation is only a third of that height, you know, for a lot of that roof it's a hundred percent or fifty percent of that that volume. So you're yeah, you're not getting around too much out there.

 

Ben: Yep. And then you can look in Cory's background here to see the advantage of doing a chainsaw retrofit wrapping over you can expose your full attic framing and

 

Cory: Yeah. So for people that don't understand,

 

Ben: Paint what?

 

Cory: these horizontal pieces are actually the ceiling joists that would have held the drywall to the underside of your ceiling. And then that up there was an attic. there was a chimney and all kinds of stuff up there. It's all gone. But the boards that you're seeing kind of here, those are that's the that's what the shingles would have been nailed to originally. it's all been stripped off. We went over it with ten mil poly and then that this area's got sixteen inches of cellulose above it. dense pack cellulose. So there's a whole new roof structure that I had to frame. This is undersized anyway. It's you know, two by four is on a twelve foot span or something. So it's they're they're undersized. So there's two by twelve choice up there or s rafters up there now. and then there's like a kind of a beam system and then there's new rafters that sit on top and trying to straighten the roof out and add structure. And then it picks up the exterior wall. The rafters tie into the exterior Larson wall and it's all kind of attached. So it's yeah. It's

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Cory: a it's a fun thing to do. it's not easy to do on a complicated building, but fortunately this one's it's like a monopoly house. It's very simple. Yeah.

 

Ben: Yep. Very, very simple. And I guess yeah,

 

Cory: Mm.

 

Ben: the overroofs are an extensive add-on to a retrofit compared to just trying to add some insulation in the attic and tie in your your air

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: tightness continuity. But there are like you mentioned, there are some advantages too of if you're adding some structure over top, which is what a lot of the over roofs are doing, you can correct some structural issues to an extent as well

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: through doing that.

 

Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Most older homes, like if you're before, you know, the seventies, they're undersized, even compared to like the current building code. We there's a local solar installer in town that we do structural repair for. they'll go into older older homes and kind of deem that the roof can't handle the solar panels, so we'll go in and and add some structural support and try and beef things up. help them out. But

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: so yeah, it's common. Super common. You don't need to be alarmed, like it's been there for forever, so it's probably gonna be fine. But but yeah. It's it's hard if you're gonna put steel roof panels on or something 'cause they're so bowed. they like to kink and stuff like that if you're trying to do a new roof or you know different different finishes don't don't like to go on to crooked roofs like it

 

Steve Norris: Yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah. And and I guess that's one one beauty too of doing like adding exterior structure. I remember, Cory, when you're working on Steve's place, adding the Larson truss, one of the first things you pointed out you're able to straighten the exterior walls essentially in in doing the Larson truss.

 

Cory: Yeah, that's another reason it's purely like an OCD preference. You know, I don't know if most people pick up that their walls are crooked, but a lot of these older houses they've got bulges and they're, Yeah, and like lumber does weird things over time, Then there's like Steve's addition as well, kinda I think took a weird sort of jog and that happens. so it's nice to be able to kind of straighten everything out. It looks really good. as a finished product. So like as someone that pays attention to that kind of thing, that's that's important to me. maybe not clients, but we like to try and straighten everything out, make everything look fresh and new.

 

Ben: Yeah. And and I think that's one of the nice advantages when when when someone's in a position to go for the whole deep energy retrofit, renew the envelope, renew the mechanical systems, you're for all intents and purposes, you have a brand new home at the end.

 

Cory: It totally. Yeah. Yeah, at least on the exterior, you know, depending on what we're doing inside. But we do that too sometimes as well. So like when you're doing a deep energy retrofit, like that structural aspect of your home that's holding everything up is is now in sort of the same space as your furniture and your hardwood floor and all that stuff. That's kind of where you want it. Like you don't really You want it to be in that nice sort of it's conditioned. It's you're not worried about water getting into it because there's a whole bunch of barriers now on the outside of that. It's not gonna rot. You're not gonna have any issues structurally that way.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: I think Matt Risinger says it's in the same space as your baby piano. but

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: but yeah, it's I like it for that reason as well. You're kind of bringing everything that's important to the inside.

 

Ben: Yeah. Awesome. So so ten ten retrofits in. I guess we've covered the one key learning is that Larson the Larson system's a great way to go. What are the other biggest learnings you guys have had through doing all these retrofits that you're applying to future projects?

 

Steve Norris: part of it's related I know we're talking retrofits, but our you know, our our business offering is expanding and what we're doing is is changing a little bit. So I mean we we've done remediation, a basement suite. We just finished our first kind of full single family high performance build. we're doing a garage and accessory dwelling unit coming up, an addition, and potentially a semi D next year. So we're like taking a lot of our learnings and stuff that we're doing on the retrofit side and taking those to, you know, full builds and suites and things like that. So it's it's all related. It's all related. So I think we learn a little bit more each each time. And and I I mean retrofitting a building is one challenge. And Cory can probably speak more to that. But but for myself, the biggest challenge is always just being on the same page with clients. working together to get our scope in line, our budget in line. on the retrofit side it can be really tricky, especially if there's like some exploratory demolition to be done first or there's some question whether or not we're doing a phase one retrofit or a full retrofit or somewhere in between. because there's a

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: lot of things that have to go hand in hand. Like if we're making your house airtight, you're gonna you're gonna get an ERV. It's not an option. But there are other things that may or may not occur. Like sometimes You know, in the current job we're on, we're removing gas-fired hot water tanks so that we can get rid of a vent that's going up through the roof. And that wasn't in the original scope. So there's there's a sometimes it can be a little bit of a moving target. So the biggest challenge is always staying on the same page with your clients and and you know, one of our biggest strengths, but also one of our weaknesses is flexibility, is you you can

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: flex to scope and budget changes, but it takes a lot of communication with clients.

 

Cory: Yeah, well said. yeah, I think expectations are hard to manage. expectations and then client expectations. it's not always communicated really well. So that's always

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: kind of a challenge. Clients, like I think every renovator builder is gonna say clients are a challenge. because you have to kind of get used to each other. There's a lot of trust there. Like, you know, especially if you're doing a retrofit. They're usually occupying the home when we're doing a retrofit. It's pretty rare that we get an empty house to retrofit. so trying

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: to manage people living in the house and we're banging and on the outside at eight in the morning and ripping out windows and you know, do all kinds of crazy stuff in the yard and it's there's stuff everywhere and there's kids running around and dogs, and you know, it's just like, okay, we gotta be careful. obviously. And that's just kind of renovation one one. Like I think

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: the number one rule of renovating is don't wreck your clients' stuff. they don't like that.

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: So that's number one. Don't do that. and then yeah, you obviously have to do a good job in a timely manner and provide value to your clients. And that's like our big thing, is providing really good value. That's always sort of been our goal and like most of the meetings that Steve and I have where we're talking about budgets and things to do and different scopes. It's sort of like how are we is this good value that we're providing? Like is this something they're gonna get back out of it? Whether it's when they sell the house from a monetary perspective, or are we providing value in the sense that we're increasing their health, comfort, efficiency, you know, like are they gonna get

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: paid back on this? Like that's that's massive. as far as I'm concerned. I I don't like to do things where I can't see the value. And

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: that's a struggle sometimes because we have clients that want to do stuff where I don't see the value. but

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: you know, there's a little bit of give and take there as well. So but

 

Ben: Yeah. And I th I think that's a an important point too, Cory. You talk about like aligning the v what what you see value in, aligning

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: that with where the clients see value or or their pri priorities. How do you how do you address those conversations when you see it? And and maybe could you give a an example of some sort of of kind of some misaligned priorities that client wants X but it doesn't make any sense to actually do it?

 

Cory: So to back up a little bit, like I used to do pretty high end renovations before

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: I got into the you know high performance side of things. And I guess the thing that really bothered me the most was when you were doing stuff like you would tear out a kitchen that's five years old to crank in a new one to a house that's like they don't even live there full time, but they just

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: wanted a new kitchen just to keep up with the Joneses. And it's just that kind of stuff I don't really like. Like I d you know, it's it's I don't we don't really do a lot of that. I I am all for making something architecturally pleasing. I am actually like a big proponent of that. Like I I want our houses to look good. I want people to be happy with where they live, feel good where they live. Like that's super important. No one wants to

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: live in a house that's sad or boring or you know. but I don't like to do stuff just for the sake of doing it so they can look cool in front of their neighbors. You know what I mean? Like it that's that's something that kind of bothers me. But other than that, like it's yeah, I I don't know, I I went on a bit of a tangent there, I think. Bail me out, bail me out,

 

Ben: Yeah. Well and I and I guess

 

Steve Norris: No.

 

Cory: Steve.

 

Steve Norris: Yeah, no, that's that's great. Like our

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: Ha ha ha.

 

Steve Norris: we're we're we're pretty stubborn. Like we're fortunate that we've been in we're in a niche now where we can say no. Yeah, we could we can say no to a lot of standard renovation stuff and there's

 

Cory: Yes, we're very picky. We're very picky. That's yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: a lot of money to be made in high end luxury building and renovation, but we just we're not interested in that. You know, we can Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Cory: I think that's what I was trying to say. Thank you, Steve.

 

Ben: The diplomatic phrase for

 

Steve Norris: Yeah.

 

Cory: Yeah, yeah. my company's called Beacon High Performance Homes. I like to work on high performance homes. Like if you want somebody that comes in and, you know, does a bunch of fancy stuff, that's not really our thing. Like we can do it, but it's yeah, it's we have other we have lots of people that that are waiting for us to come work on their home. So when we get bogged down doing a lot of cosmetic things that don't necessarily matter. in the grand scheme of their building performance. It's yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard to do.

 

Ben: Yeah.

 

Cory: so yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah. And Steve Steve, how are how are those conversations going with with clients? Maybe more just think of more recent conversations you've been having in in terms of the energy efficiency improvements. Are are people coming saying, Hey, I I want these improvements and I need I want to save some money on bills, I want a more comfortable house or how are things going with those lately?

 

Steve Norris: Yeah. Yeah. Most of our work is word of mouth, referrals and we're pretty visible in the industry. Like the green sustainable building community in Calgary is pretty small. So, you know, we all know each other. you know, we we go out together. we also we're all on webinars and podcasts and, you know, partnering with SAIT on things. So there is a lot of visibility in the industry and and we and some of our colleagues have been Become known for what we do. So most of the clients that we get are already come to us saying, you know, this is what I want. I really want something that's net zero or energy efficient. So so a lot of the time for us, it's almost trying to dial some people back who have like Googled a lot of detail on things. They see, you know, technologies or ideas that they want to try out and things like that. So it's kind of coming to that alignment. About okay, here's our experience and here's the most practical way to get to where you're going and aligning that with what they want and need. But yeah, although we're like i project manage, so I'm the office guy. Cory's our construction manager and works with the crew, and he's got two guys with him right now. So, you know, that kind of caps our capacity to do work, but it means we can focus on one job at a time and do a really great job of it. we're doing a lot of scopes in-house, which means we can kind of control the quality of things.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: but it does limit the number of projects that we can take on. So it's it's actually nice to be able to be a little bit fussy about the kind of jobs we do.

 

Ben: Yeah. Well that's a good good position to to be in. and I guess it's it's been a great conversation. I think we're about getting close to about time to to to wrap things up a bit.

 

Cory: Mm.

 

Ben: for closing comments, what would your advice be to a contractor that's looking at diving into the residential retrofit industry? what's your top piece of advice for a contractor looking to get into residential retrofits?

 

Steve Norris: Wow, that's a great question. I mean number one, number one is you have to know the building science because you can do it wrong. which is not good. we do our very best to not touch something unless we can do it right and to not touch it twice. And there are ways to screw up a retrofit. So you really need to know the building science. so I'd say, you know, getting connected with educational resources, being a part of the community, having people that you can call and ask questions, but it's really important to know what you're doing first.

 

Ben: Yep. Cory? Did Steve just steal your answer? No.

 

Cory: Mm-hmm. I agree. well, that's like the obvious one, right? It's like, ooh, thunder. building science is important. don't mess that up. Don't like the building science is an underrated point because it's not just like you can screw up your house. It's like you can create like a pretty unhealthy environment to live in.

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: Which is I don't think that's emphasized enough. Yeah. definitely get some education. if you're a contractor, you know, trying to do this kind of stuff, like it's it's also the value piece. I think you gotta make sure that you're you're providing good value to your clients. if you're doing that, then I I don't think you know, and you're and you're paying attention to the building science piece and you're creating a durable retrofit at the end of the day, then that's that's should be your goal. I think you'll have lots of work if you can if you can figure that out. Yeah.

 

Ben: Yeah. Awesome.

 

Steve Norris: There's you know, retrofits, you know, there's a sweet spot and the perfect, you know, time to be doing a retrofit is when a place needs new roofing,

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: new siding, new windows.

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Steve Norris: So it's almost like there should be more exterior contractors who are adding retrofit as an option where, you know, if you're already doing all that scope, the opportunity is there to improve your airtightness, to add a bunch of insulation, reduce your consumption. And that really is step one along kind of the retrofit roadmap or the journey. So

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Steve Norris: you know, contractors that have that exterior experience and are presented with those opportunities should learn how to say, Hey, the incremental cost of doing this better is not that much at this point.

 

Cory: Yeah, there's like such a big like Steve's got a point there with all the re-siding that's happening in Calgary every time there's a hail storm, like we're not really fixing up a lot of these houses. But

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: it's not just on the sider, you know, to to come in and add a bunch of insulation. Like if you're thinking about the home as a system, you also need to pay really

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: close attention to that mechanical piece. if you're increasing the air tightness on a home, you need to address your fresh air and ventilation. So that's You know, I think that gets overlooked. I think a lot of people try and make their house super airtight and do all this stuff and it's like you're not bringing fresh air into the house. that's that's yeah. The house is a system, do your building science research and then yeah, find a system that works for you. it's not necessarily Larson Wall's the best thing in the world, it's just kind of what we do. So it there's lots out there. there's so many different ways to retrofit a home. It's crazy. So you can get lost in it. It's a it's a rabbit hole. So but it's fun. I definitely recommend it to anyone who has the opportunity.

 

Ben: Yeah. And if someone if someone's looking for a good place to go for a rabbit hole of options, you can go check out the Retrofit Canada Case Study Library, retrofitcanada.com. Steve, your place is up on there as well as a couple other projects you guys have done. a lot of great resources there on retrofitcanada.com showing examples of actual completed retrofit projects. And I and I think like the building science houses a system is is uber important and also is what what was just said in in like lining up the retrofit measures with components or systems in a home that are due for replacement anyways. That's ideal. If everything's ready for renewal, that's your prime for deep energy retrofit. If you just need new windows and cladding, then let's improve that section of it now and wait for the mechanical systems to age out a bit more. Like how do we get the most value for the homeowners out of their home? Cause we're we're not all in a position to replace a five year old kitchen in a house we only partially live in just so it can be the latest style.

 

Cory: Yeah, you know, and there's so many people out there doing that kind of stuff and they're not improving their home from an energy efficiency perspective or a comfort perspective or health perspective. It's just it's lipstick, mascara. Lots of lots of that going on in industry for sure.

 

Ben: Yeah. There's an awful lot of pigs walking around with some really nice lipstick.

 

Cory: Yeah, like, you know, like the amount of custom home guys out there that are like doing such an amazing job on all the finishes and just like, wow, you know, this place is great. But it's like your airtightness is garbage and it's a standard two by six code built wall. It's like are you really providing the best value to your clients with that?

 

Ben: Mm-hmm.

 

Cory: You know, it's like you probably could have pushed a little harder on the envelope side.

 

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. When I was doing building envelope remediation work several years ago it was crazy the amount and maybe it's just cause those are the people that have the money to bring in envelope consultants, but the amount of these new build custom infill homes that have major building science issues. They look really

 

Cory: Yeah.

 

Ben: nice from the street. And then you get in closer, and Yeah. Yeah. But at

 

Cory: Yeah. Attic rain and leaks and just just rough.

 

Ben: the At the end of the day, it's really providing healthy, comfortable homes that people feel good to live in and and to the point you made earlier, Cory, like it's important to feel good about the house and like the way your house looks, but but there's many

 

Cory: Mm-hmm.

 

Ben: other aspects beyond beyond that to have it be a nice, nice home to live in.

 

Steve Norris: All of our jobs start with the conversation, like first of all, should I ret sh should you retrofit this home? Like is it is it the right thing to do for this one? And then, you know, in addition to that, it's also how can we add value in other ways? Like if we're gonna rip some things apart, you know, maybe you do need a new kitchen, or maybe you need to move a bathroom, or maybe you need to think about how you're aging if you want to age in place in that. So we try to have as many of those conversations at the same time and and kind of double up retrofit with other needs.

 

Ben: Yeah. And I think that could be a great future conversation as well. Like should you retrofit your home and and what should be the objectives of that that retrofit. There's many areas to to dig in into that and kind of looking at what that initial retrofit scope should be, if there should be a retrofit scope. 'Cause not every home needs to be retrofit. I would say the vast majority of homes are great candidates themselves for retrofit, but there's other influences as well beyond the home that might make it not a good or a a good financial decision or or feasible to retrofit in some cases. So but

 

Steve Norris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Ben: yeah. But think I guess we can we can wrap things up now. Just wanna thank you both for taking the time out of your busy days for for joining me and and sharing your experiences and thoughts.

 

Cory: Anytime. Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having us.

 

Steve Norris: Yeah, thanks, man.

 

Ben: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Renewing Homes. If you enjoyed the conversation, share it with someone working to improve homes. And I'd love to hear from you. Leave me a voicemail or send me a message at renewinghomes.ca with your thoughts, questions, or ideas for future conversations. Let's keep exploring how we can do this better. Better homes through better retrofits. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests and do not necessarily reflect those of any affiliated organizations.